"official" racist church doctrine

[_KevinSim]

lol @ any member of a Bible believing faith mocking Mormonism, especially evangelical...what a rich history, just in the 1900s, of extensive racism.

Forget racist practices of Bible believers, even as recently as the 1900s; it's written in the scriptures! I admit it's easy to look at the Book of Mormon and conclude that whoever wrote it was unacceptably racist, but tell me, what's worse than simple racism? How about genocidal racism? When did the LDS God ever tell any of the Nephite prophets to completely wipe out the Lamanite race? And yet that's precisely what the Christian God told Samuel to tell Saul to do in 1 Samuel 15:3.

[_Juggler Vain]

When did the LDS God ever tell any of the Nephite prophets to completely wipe out the Lamanite race? And yet that's precisely what the Christian God told Samuel to tell Saul to do in 1 Samuel 15:3.

From the LDS perspective, aren't these two Gods the same God? Don't most Mormons also believe the 1 Samuel stuff?

Also, the Nephite God told Alma not to intervene when a whole congregation of innocent women and children were being thrown on a fire. Doesn't that kind of disregard for human life and suffering contradict your point above? Or is the fact that the murders weren't race-based an important difference?

8 And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire.

9 And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire.

10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.

11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

[emphasis added]

-JV

[_KevinSim]

From the LDS perspective, aren't these two Gods the same God? Don't most Mormons also believe the 1 Samuel stuff?

Precisely. Latter-day Saints (like me) do believe the two deities are one and the same; they do believe the 1 Samuel stuff. My point is simply that Biblical Christians who want to separate the LDS God from their own personal God, by saying that the LDS God is racist, implying that their deity is not, really have no idea what they're talking about.

Also, the Nephite God told Alma not to intervene when a whole congregation of innocent women and children were being thrown on a fire. Doesn't that kind of disregard for human life and suffering contradict your point above?

By that logic the God who had the power to save the lives of the Jews in the Holocaust was just as guilty of their murders as the Nazis who physically killed them. Is that really what you want to say?

There's a huge difference between a deity having the power to save a life and abstaining, and a deity allegedly commanding others to kill.

[_Darth J]

KevinSim, you're doing an excellent job in pointing out the problems of both the Old Testament and traditional theism. Well done.

It's only digging yourself in a hole as far as Mormonism is concerned, but still: well done.

[_Drifting]

Also, the Nephite God told Alma not to intervene when a whole congregation of innocent women and children were being thrown on a fire. Doesn't that kind of disregard for human life and suffering contradict your point above?

By that logic the God who had the power to save the lives of the Jews in the Holocaust was just as guilty of their murders as the Nazis who physically killed them. Is that really what you want to say?

There's a huge difference between a deity having the power to save a life and abstaining, and a deity allegedly commanding others to kill.

When all those men, women and children died in the Great Flood during Noah's time; was that God abstaining or God killing? Because the Bible kinda reads like He wanted it to happen...

[_DarkHelmet]

When all those men, women and children died in the Great Flood during Noah's time; was that God abstaining or God killing? Because the Bible kinda reads like He wanted it to happen...

The God of the Old Testament was a psycho. This is just one example of his atrocities.

[_Tim]

I'll concede for the sake of argument that if choosing one race to be God's chosen race (blessed to be a blessing) makes the Old Testament and the Old Testament God racist, then yes God is racist. He clearly chose one race to have blessings that he gave to no other race, if that's racist, then yes God is racist. This conversation wasn't really about the Book of Mormon or the Old Testament though.

The point in posting the link in the OP was that I regularly hear that the LDS church has no racist teachings. The interpretations of the Book of Mormon that make it sound racist are not official church doctrine and are not officially taught by the church. The link provides a clear example of a teaching that expands on the original text. Regardless of whatever racism may be inherent in the scripture, the doctrine/teaching/interpretation of the LDS church is even more explicitly racist than the scripture itself.

Yes, many American Protestants have been racist. Some of them "officially racist" (looking at you Southern Baptist and Bob Jones Univ). I don't deny that for one second. I condemn any such teachings by anyone and everyone I may have been affiliated with and I apologize for any harm that may have come from those teachings.

It's not the history of racism in Mormonism that bothers me as much as the inability for Mormons to own, condemn and apologize for any racism in their own past.

[_KevinSim]

I'll concede for the sake of argument that if choosing one race to be God's chosen race (blessed to be a blessing) makes the Old Testament and the Old Testament God racist, then yes God is racist.

Actually my comments about the racism of the Christian God were about another chosen people, namely Amalek, chosen not for a blessing, but rather for annihilation. We're talking genocide, not just condoned by the Judeo-Christian God, but rather commanded by that deity. Tim, how can the racism you saw at the website you listed even compare to the genocidal racism God commanded in 1 Samuel 15:3?

I condemn any such teachings by anyone and everyone I may have been affiliated with and I apologize for any harm that may have come from those teachings.

Are you saying you condemn God due to what God told Samuel to tell Saul in 1 Samuel 15?

It's not the history of racism in Mormonism that bothers me as much as the inability for Mormons to own, condemn and apologize for any racism in their own past.

Look, Tim, I'll apologize. I'm ashamed of some of the racist views I held back prior to Spencer Kimball's priesthood revelation June 1978. I had no good reason to have the attitude toward blacks I had, it was just plain wrong, and I'm extremely sorry I ever bought into the ideas I had back then.

[_KevinSim]

It's only digging yourself in a hole as far as Mormonism is concerned, but still: well done.

Darth J, why do you say I'm digging myself "in a hole as far as Mormonism is concerned"?

[_Darth J]

It's only digging yourself in a hole as far as Mormonism is concerned, but still: well done.

Darth J, why do you say I'm digging myself "in a hole as far as Mormonism is concerned"?

Because Mormonism:

1. Maintains that the Old Testament is actual history.
2. Maintains that God has all of the attributes ascribed to him by traditional theism, and therefore unwittingly adopts all of the philosophical problems of traditional theism.

So:

1. Pointing out problems in the biblical narrative means pointing out problems in Mormonism.
2. Pointing out problems in traditional theism is pointing out problems in Mormonism.