Brian Hale's FAIR Presentation on Sexual Polyandry

[_Stormy Waters]

It's different with Joseph because Joseph LIED. He went out of his way to keep his sexual exploits a secret and he told bald-faced lies to entire congregations of loyal believers.

And he instructed others to lie. Joesph told Heber C. Kimball to lie to his wife Vilate about Hebers first plural wife even though Heber didn't want to.

[_Ludd]

Have any of you read Brian Hale's FAIR presentation? http://www.fairlds.org/fair-conferences ... do-we-find

If so, what are your thoughts? I haven't had a chance yet to read through the whole thing, but it seems to be pretty good even if his conclusions are a bit of a stretch. Also, I think Hales may have pushed the limits on interpreting Section 132 as condemning sexual polyandry (a woman having sex with both of her husbands).

I don't remember ever reading anything like that in D&C 132.

I also think that if men can have more than one wife, women should be permitted to have multiple husbands if the want them. Why not? Isn't everything "holy" in heaven?

[_dblagent007]

It's different with Joseph because Joseph LIED. He went out of his way to keep his sexual exploits a secret and he told bald-faced lies to entire congregations of loyal believers.

I agree. My problem was never that Joseph practiced polygamy. It was HOW he practiced polygamy.

He lied to just about anyone and everyone, but especially Emma. He coerced reluctant women and girls by telling them that an angel would kill him if they refused to marry him thereby resting the entire success of the restoration of Jesus Christ's true church on their decision to marry him. He coerced at least one reluctant girl to marry him by telling her that she and her entire family would be guaranteed exaltation if she would marry him. He married women while their husbands were away on missions (missions that Joseph called them to). Women who refused him were slandered in a vicious fashion (Sarah Pratt, Martha Brotherton, etc.).

[_3sheets2thewind]

...
I thought Zina married Henry Jacobs in an attempt to stop Joseph Smith from bugging her about marrying him. That's what I remember from In Sacred Loneliness anyway.

the FAIRisees, Neo-Danites (DCP worshippers), and MADites discussed this a few weeks ago, their claim is she was not sealed to Joseph Smith till long after Joseph was dead.

On LDS.org any information about Zina does not mention Joseph Smith in terms of being sealed to him.

[_Madison54]

It's different with Joseph because Joseph LIED. He went out of his way to keep his sexual exploits a secret and he told bald-faced lies to entire congregations of loyal believers.

I do get that.

So in other words, apologists just accept that he lied and also that he didn't live the principle as commanded rather than face the obvious fact that sex was involved.

Pretty twisted, but I guess they try to make it work (again, the mental gymnastics, huh?)

[_Cicero]

Can someone explain to me why apologists (and others) go to such great lengths to prove that Joseph Smith did not have sexual relations with his polygamous wives and most specifically those that were polyandrous?

That is an excellent question Madison and one that I've often pondered myself. I think apologists focus on this because critics often want to portray Joseph Smith as a sex-crazed pedophile (the Warren Jeffs of his day) and so they want to try to counter this perception by pointing out the absence of evidence that any sexual relations occurred.

If you think about it more broadly speaking as it relates to Mormon's beliefs regarding the afterlife, then it is disturbing to me regardless of whether he had sexual relations with "those wimmin" (to paraphrase Bill Clinton and Pahoran). Think about how important the sealing ordinance is to Mormons with respect to our place and relation to our family in the eternities. Leaving aside the issue of sex for a moment, if you are a believer then what Joseph did was potentially disrupt eternal marriage bonds and to negatively affect certain male members' chances for attaining the highest degree of glory. I have always found that very troubling (along with the fact that this implies that your glory as a man increases in the afterlife depending upon the size of your eternal harem).

[_Bob Loblaw]

It's different with Joseph because Joseph LIED. He went out of his way to keep his sexual exploits a secret and he told bald-faced lies to entire congregations of loyal believers.

That's the problem. If there wasn't any sex involved why did he have to lie to anyone about it? Why not just tell Emma "God has commanded me to enter into a covenant relationship with these other women but I will remain completely faithful to you"? If there wasn't any sex involved why was Emma so upset about it?

[_just me]

It's different with Joseph because Joseph LIED. He went out of his way to keep his sexual exploits a secret and he told bald-faced lies to entire congregations of loyal believers.

That's the problem. If there wasn't any sex involved why did he have to lie to anyone about it? Why not just tell Emma "God has commanded me to enter into a covenant relationship with these other women but I will remain completely faithful to you"? If there wasn't any sex involved why was Emma so upset about it?

Well, some people would call her derogetory names...

[_Bob Loblaw]

Well, some people would call her derogetory names...

I can see it now if I were in Joseph Smith's situation:

Me: Honey, I have something important to tell you. You know that 16 year old girl who lives next door, the one with that tiny bikini? Yeah, well, God wants me to marry her. You'll still be my wife, my true love, but she'll be my wife, too. Oh, and God says if you don't go along with this, he'll destroy you.
my wife [laughing]: You always were a practical joker, Bob.
Me: No, I'm being serious. That's what God commanded and who am I to say no to God?
my wife: I have a gun, and I know how to use it.

[Guest]

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