Polygamy is the new marriage-rights frontier

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_Willy Law
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Re: Polygamy is the new marriage-rights frontier

Post by _Willy Law »

bcspace wrote:
Legal polygamy in Utah will be a major headache for the church.


I doubt it. They're already dealing with it in Africa and the fact that upwards of a million practitioners of plural marriage already exist in the USA doesn't stop them from excommunicating wherever they find it.


Those members barely understand that they are cursed let alone that God is a polygamist.
It is my province to teach to the Church what the doctrine is. It is your province to echo what I say or to remain silent.
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_Bob Loblaw
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Re: Polygamy is the new marriage-rights frontier

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

bcspace wrote:Indeed. While I currently don't, I could be persuaded because of, for example, my libertarian streak on marijuana legalization (I'm 50/50 on that). While the state has no compelling interest in recognizing gay marriages (let them marry all they want just don't recognize them), they would have a compelling interest (the possibility of children raised in an ideal heterosexual marriage plural or otherwise) in this case.


I think there's a strong case to be made that the state has a compelling interest in recognizing gay marriages, as committed, stable relationships have far fewer negative social effects than do casual hook-ups. I would think that's obvious. Anyway, I wonder what an ideal plural marriage would be: is it the Kody Brown type that all lives together, or the Orson Hyde/Heber Kimball model, wherein wives live separated from their husband, and they and their children see the patriarch only on occasion. Having a gay couple around all the time to take care of their kids is clearly preferable to that.

Yet it's the main thrust of criticism against the LDS Church.


Really? I've never thought of it that way. I thought the main criticism of the church is that none of its claims are actually true.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
_Chap
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Re: Polygamy is the new marriage-rights frontier

Post by _Chap »

Yup - as expected, bcspace has done a runner. And it was this post that did it:


========================
Bob Loblaw wrote:
Chap wrote:You are the one who expressed doubt that Smith had sex with the women he was sealed to. The Temple Lot affidavits, referenced in that thread, are good evidence you are wrong. You were asked repeatedly to say whether you thought the women who swore those affidavits were lying under oath. You gave no response, which is why I am asking you to respond now.

Well, do you think those wives of Joseph Smith were lying? And if not, doesn't that show that Joseph Smith had sex with several of his plural wives, contrary to your expressed doubts?



You don't seriously believe you'll get an answer from our cut-and-run expert, do you?


Surprise! You are right. I come back to this thread after a while, and here is bcspace, acting as if :

1. He had never expressed skepticism about Smith having sex with his plural wives ("where are the children" etc.)

2. He had never been confronted with the evidence from the Temple Lot case in which several of Smith's plural wives, faithful Mormon women, swore affidavits saying that they had sex with him, affidavits which were submitted to the court by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

3. He had never been asked to explain the mismatch between (1) and (2).

Bcspace is acting like a coward.

============================
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_3sheets2thewind
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Re: Polygamy is the new marriage-rights frontier

Post by _3sheets2thewind »

On behalf of bcspace, pahoran, droopy, selek1, bill hamblin, et al.....

"Don't you buttheads know anything? You are full of crap morons. And that is the nice way of putting. Those who testified, to having sex with Joseph Smith, in the Temple Lot case had an ulterior motive. They did not have sex. No True Saint, who had sex with a Prophet, would admit to such. Because all True Saints know that True Saints do not talk about such things. (Anyways, you all are butt-holes.)

Since it is established that those witnesses in the Temple Lot Case are not True Saints, then we shall and must besmirch their character and testimony as being that of liberal-marxist-gaygitor-apostates who are the puppeteers of Gerald Bradford - they had Bradford fire Dr. Peterson by email.

Notwithstanding their individual apostate status each of those tramps, was trying to get title to the land; so anything they said was not the truth, their each are damned liars who used the opportunity to besmirch the name of the Prophet."
_bcspace
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Re: Polygamy is the new marriage-rights frontier

Post by _bcspace »

I think there's a strong case to be made that the state has a compelling interest in recognizing gay marriages, as committed, stable relationships have far fewer negative social effects than do casual hook-ups


Yet the actual science shows there are far more risk factors involved with the lifestyle, easily outweighing negative (nothing) intrinsic to heterosexual ones. There is no reason for the state to benefit anything but the ideal and natural relationship which is heterosexual.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_bcspace
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Re: Polygamy is the new marriage-rights frontier

Post by _bcspace »

Interesting how little interest there is about the ramifications of plural marriage itself (except from DarkHelmet) DarkHelmet, that this is immediately seen as some sort of threat to the idea gay marriage (admittedly, it is, but not that much).

Plural marriage has usually been at the leading edge of LDS criticism and yet there seems to be......silence. Perhaps this Janet Bennion has alleviated all fears about plural marriage and we can go ahead and recognize such relationships, freeing up the Church to return to it's practice. Did any of you even read the answers she gave to the questions I posted?
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_beastie
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Re: Polygamy is the new marriage-rights frontier

Post by _beastie »

Chap wrote:
Surprise! You are right. I come back to this thread after a while, and here is bcspace, acting as if :

1. He had never expressed skepticism about Smith having sex with his plural wives ("where are the children" etc.)

2. He had never been confronted with the evidence from the Temple Lot case in which several of Smith's plural wives, faithful Mormon women, swore affidavits saying that they had sex with him, affidavits which were submitted to the court by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

3. He had never been asked to explain the mismatch between (1) and (2).

Bcspace is acting like a coward.

============================


LOL. He just won't answer.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_palerobber
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Re: Polygamy is the new marriage-rights frontier

Post by _palerobber »

bcspace wrote:
In her decades of researching polygamy, Janet Bennion, a professor of anthropology and sociology at Lyndon State College, recalls three times she was “courted” by married women. One wrote her “love letters.” Another took her to a restaurant “to determine whether I was wifely material,” Bennion writes in her new book, Polygamy in Primetime.

These women were devout members of fundamentalist Mormon sects, not swingers. Like many examples in Bennion’s illuminating study, they defy the popular perception that the practice of men taking multiple wives is solely about the male libido.

Liberal Vermonters have cheered on the progress of marriage rights this election season. But what would we say to a woman who sought to unite herself in matrimony to a man and another woman?

We might crack jokes about group sex, accept such a union as “polyamory,” or view it as dangerous to women’s rights when associated with a patriarchal religion. But whatever we think of polygamy in America, Bennion argues, it’s not going away anytime soon. And she believes it should be legal.

.............................

Polygamy in Primetime responds to this new visibility with an overview of the subject that, despite occasional academic language, will appeal to general readers seeking more details than the soap operatics of “Big Love” can provide. Bennion argues provocatively that, just as marriage-equality legislation followed the advent of nuanced media portrayals of gays and lesbians, so “the decriminalization of polygamy will follow the recent poly media phenomenon.”

Of course, there are plenty of reasons for progressives to question the notion that polygamy is part of the “new American sexual revolution,” as Bennion puts it. Mormon plural marriage is tied to patriarchy and the official subordination of women who have access to the privileges of “priesthood” only through men (as in mainstream LDS). The practice rests on the assumption that all fertile women should be breeding; it relies on a high female-to-male ratio; and it has led to abuses, from the rape of teenagers to the mass expulsion of young men who threatened the ruling patriarchs’ monopoly on nubile wives.

But, as Bennion points out, monogamy has sheltered abuses, too. Polygamy, she believes, will never be “the prevalent marriage structure.” Yet it seems to work for some, including mainstream LDS women who convert to fundamentalist sects seeking a “good man” they can’t find in the regular dating pool — even if they have to share him.

We may assume we know why men opt for polygamy: Is a guy who maintains three wives in connected households really that different from a secular serial monogamist on his third or fourth family? But why would an educated, independent-minded woman choose such a situation?

.............................

SEVEN DAYS: What do women find in polygamy?
SD: What’s the relationship between fundamentalists and the LDS church?
SD: You mention having a “theory that plural marriage fosters clandestine lesbianism” — something the LDS church
doesn’t condone.
SD: Were you ever tempted by polygamy?
SD: Why should we legalize plural marriage?
SD: Given the reasons you cite for modern single women to choose polygamy — access to high-status men, emotional and economic support from co-wives — is it likely to start taking nonreligious forms?

Polygamy new marriage-rights frontier. We need to get off our high horse, and look at this from a civil liberties perspective


best of luck with that. do you already have someone in mind?
_bcspace
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Re: Polygamy is the new marriage-rights frontier

Post by _bcspace »

best of luck with that. do you already have someone in mind?


After so much invested in criticism of the LDS Church over plural marriage, when one comes at it with a serious approach all you have is invective?

Did you guys catch this statement in the article?

As a feminist, I say, “Bring it on; let’s legalize it.” In that way, what you do is you bring the abuses into the light. You bring in governmental regulating policies that protect second wives.

[This position is] controversial, that’s for sure. There are abuses, but to state that polygamy is uniformly abusive is just an outright lie. It’s a form of bigotry.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Bob Loblaw
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Re: Polygamy is the new marriage-rights frontier

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

bcspace wrote:Yet the actual science shows there are far more risk factors involved with the lifestyle, easily outweighing negative (nothing) intrinsic to heterosexual ones. There is no reason for the state to benefit anything but the ideal and natural relationship which is heterosexual.


Which risk factors are involved in same-sex marriages?
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
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