How important should the Joseph Smith papyri be?

[_Shulem]

The facsimile is the only fly in the ointment by association.

Cue Shulem's arrival to this thread in 3...2...1...

All my posts have to be approved and the moderators are slow on the draw today!

Godamnit!



Paul O

[_ludwigm]

Nevertheless, religion isn't about facts as much as it is about results. You don't really believe that the pagan ancients really believed that their myths were anchored in history, do you?

Gordon Bitner Hinckley, October 2002 LDS General Conference

I knew a so-called intellectual who said the Church was trapped by its history. My response was that without that history we have nothing.

From the same conference talk:
Subsequently came the bestowal of further priesthood keys under the hands of Moses, Elias, and Elijah.

Think of it, my brothers and sisters. Think of the wonder of it.

Think of it, brothers and sisters. The keys under the hands of Moses, Elijah, and under the hands one of the KJV Bible many translation errors...

[_The Erotic Apologist]

When I was researching John Brewer, I found some evidence that a number of his forged "Nephite" artifacts had ended up in the Church's and BYU's possession and been relegated to ignominious, uncatalogued storage.

Where can I learn more about John Brewer?

[_CaliforniaKid]

Eventually you'll be able to learn about him in the chapter I'm writing for Chris Blythe's "Scriptures of Mormonisms" compilation. :)

In the meantime, try John Heinerman's Hidden Treasures of Ancient American Cultures. One of the most fun Mormon books I've ever read. :)

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Eventually you'll be able to learn about him in the chapter I'm writing for Chris Blythe's "Scriptures of Mormonisms" compilation. :)

In the meantime, try John Heinerman's Hidden Treasures of Ancient American Cultures. One of the most fun Mormon books I've ever read. :)

Excellent, thanks!

[_Fence Sitter]

Eventually you'll be able to learn about him in the chapter I'm writing for Chris Blythe's "Scriptures of Mormonisms" compilation. :)

In the meantime, try John Heinerman's Hidden Treasures of Ancient American Cultures. One of the most fun Mormon books I've ever read. :)

Here is a quote from an Amazon review on the book CK recommends.

This book is deceptively titled to appeal to a general audience. It should have been more honestly titled: "Archaeological Evidences for the Book of Mormon that Even Mormon Church Authorities Regard as Dubious." Most of the book concerns hoards of supposed ancient Jaredite artifacts discovered in caves in Utah. According to this book, knowledge of the artifacts is being suppressed by a conspiracy that includes the Church hierarchy, Brigham Young University, and the Deseret News. This is certainly not a group that you think would suppress such finds - if the finds were genuine. A more rational explanation is that Church authorities and LDS scholars are embarrassed by these crude forgeries, and wisely refuse to publicize them.

I can see why CK was entertained.

Here are some chapter titles from the book.

A Preposterous Notion--Two Hill Cumorah Treasure Caches

Introducing the Gadiantons, America's First Masonic Mafia I assume he will also tell us who came in second.

Cursed Treasure Sites of the Evil Ones

and my favorite

Ascending the Mountain of Holiness: Locating that Particular Peak in Faraway China Where the Brother of Jared Met the Lord Jesus Christ

I don't understand why this wasn't a runaway best seller.

[_sock puppet]

Unless it can be shown that the fragments are what Joseph Smith used they are not important. The facsimile is the only fly in the ointment by association. Joseph Smith was no translator. He goofed many times. Even expert translators do not agree on the best words to convey ideas through translating. If the original papyri existed, like the gold plates, then critics could study something to make comparisons. As it is, the book of Abraham is in the same boat with the Book of Mormon, and any "inspired" changes to the Bible that Joseph Smith made. It all comes down to if it "works for you". If it doesn't, then move on in your searching....

Don't report me to the ASPCA.

Thank you, Wilbur.

[_Dantana]

It seems to me, if the claims of the church are true, the Joseph Smith papyri should be one of the most important religious artifacts discovered in the past 200 years. Its the type of thing Indiana Jones would dig up to keep it out of the hands of the Nazis. The New York Metropolitan Museum handed it over to the church without much fuss. If they thought they actually had writings of Abraham, or even writings that dated from the time of Abraham and might possibly be his writings that they would have let it go so easily? Instead they called the church and told them to come pick up their crap. And since the discovery of the papyri, nobody cares, not even the church leaders and scholars at BYU. That alone should be a huge red flag.

I've always found it odd that golden plates were so precious that few could even see them and had to be escorted back to Kolob, yet the papyri tissues, the writings of one of gods most favorite people were treated like....tissues.

[_sock puppet]

There isn't such a thing as "history". "Historicity", yes, but not history: if by that you mean that there is one, bonafide factual account (if we could only know which one it is), that we actually can ferret it out of the gaping holes we define as "evidence". We are stuck in the present (and it doesn't always feel like a gift to me)

Is that how you explain away your college transcript when in a job interview?

[_sock puppet]

Joseph Smith was no translator.

I give unto you my servant Joseph to be a presiding elder over all my church, to be a translator, a revelator, a seer, and prophet.

SAUCE

Jehovah was only speaking as a man?

As opposed to the time he caused a jackass to talk in the Old Testament?