Elder Anderson - Church experiencing explosive growth.

[_Lemmie]

Indoctrination not the Book of Mormon is what drives conversion.

The reason the Brethren are banging the theme of 'conversion' this year with Missionaries and ward members is because the Book of Mormon hasn't been converting people.

You, of course, are welcome to that opinion. Doesn't make it true however.

Making a definitive judgement call again?

Someone might believe you...

Regards,
MG

Please just express your opinion. Do you really think calling someone's words a 'definitive judgment call' doesn't also suggest YOUR words are a 'definitive judgment call' as well?

Do you really think that the phrases 'you are, of course, welcome to your opinion..'. and 'doesn't make it true however' do not also apply to your words?

So once we've established all of this applies to all opinions, INCLUDING YOURS, we're still back to having a discussion. How about we just skip ahead to that, all of us; I include myself in this lecture.

[_Dr Exiled]

Indoctrination not the Book of Mormon is what drives conversion.

The reason the Brethren are banging the theme of 'conversion' this year with Missionaries and ward members is because the Book of Mormon hasn't been converting people.

You, of course, are welcome to that opinion. Doesn't make it true however.

Making a definitive judgement call again?

Someone might believe you...

Regards,
MG

MG:

Dictionary.com defines "indoctrination" as the act of indoctrinating, or teaching or inculcating a doctrine, principle, or ideology, especially one with a specific point of view: religious indoctrination. Isn't that what the missionaries are doing? Certainly they use the Book of Mormon in this process, however, they are indoctrinating.

Anyway, the church doesn't really follow the Book of Mormon anymore. The book is heaven and hell, trinitarian, and socialist as described in 4th Nephi. None of that exists in the church today. So, doesn't the book become a mere prop in the indoctrination/conversion process? Read this Biblically sounding prop, pray, have a good feeling that may be totally unrelated to anything about the Book of Mormon, and then the missionaries guide the individual to believe that it is related and that the individual should be baptized. Isn't this "indoctrination?"

[_Sethbag]

The evidence that I have seen and heard over the years is that very few people convert to Mormonism because of the Book of Mormon. The majority of members have been converted through the indoctrination process which commenced from the moment they were born to Mormon parents.

It wasn't a scientific survey or anything, but I was kind of shocked on my mission to find out that most if not all of my mission companions, and other missionaries I served with, hadn't read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover even once, much less the D&C, PoGP, and Bible, prior to entering the MTC. One could argue maybe they didn't need to have read it to know that it was true, since the Spirit could have told them, but that turns the Book of Mormon from a powerful work whose contents have convincing power into more of a spiritual McGuffin.

Most convert baptisms arrive out of something other than a testimony of the Book of Mormon - they like the missionaries, they like the sense of community, the idea of being a family forever appeals to them, it's a potential source of welfare, they're lonely or grieving and can find comfort in the local members, it's a good social network etc. A lot of that wears off once callings and tithing kick in and the attention they've had in the lead up to baptism suddenly dissipates and the ward focus moves on to the next golden prospect.

If we consider that a lot of these baptisms occur as the result of spiritual salesmanship techniques, then we shouldn't discount the effect of buyer's remorse once they get stuck with the bill.

[_ludwigm]

It wasn't a scientific survey or anything, but I was kind of shocked on my mission to find out that most if not all of my mission companions, and other missionaries I served with, hadn't read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover even once, much less the D&C, PoGP, and Bible, prior to entering the MTC. One could argue maybe they didn't need to have read it to know that it was true, since the Spirit ...

My wife had a similar experience - even more agrestic.

The ward president didn't renewed the next year's temple recommends for her womanfriends - with whom he was baptized together - because they reported publicly that that pres didn't read the whole Book of Mormon.
Even it was true, but "they didn't support the leadership".

[_spotlight]

With the explosive growth of the church and of missionary work across the world, he added, “the power of the marvelous work and a wonder is right before our eyes.”

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... tml?pg=all

Explosive growth?

See third simple definition or 2b of full definition:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/explosive

Members join and discover they've been had and get angry -> explosive growth.


This growth is due to the Book of Mormon!

2 Nephi 5:15 says, And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

2 Nephi 5:16, And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.

The temple of Solomon took 180,000 men a period of 7 years to build. So I guess it took 8 men and 10 women 70,000 years, minus the time for the missing fineries of course, which were in great abundance but not to be found upon the land.

FAIR: They were in great abundance but found in rivers and lakes, not upon the land. They weren't used in the temple because the women didn't like getting their hair wet. The temple was like unto Solomon's but 10,000 times smaller.



1Ne 11:25 which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God;

1Ne 12:16 And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the fountain of filthy water which thy father saw; yea, even the river of which he spake; and the depths thereof are the depths of hell.

FAIR: Excommunication is a court of love. In similar vein the fountain of waters which represent the depths of hell represent the love of God. "It's fur yer own good me son, next time obey me when I tell you to diddle yer neighbor's wife."