Trump's War on the Poor/Minorities continues

[_Maxine Waters]

What if they don't do their community service? Oh yes, more lawyers and court costs to the taxpayer for some never ending diversion program.

Seriously, would the IRS just ask me if I could afford a tax? What about a family court judge? Do you think they'll just take my word for it that I can't afford what they're asking?

[_EAllusion]

What if they don't do their community service? Oh yes, more lawyers and court costs to the taxpayer for some never ending diversion program.

Seriously, would the IRS just ask me if I could afford a tax? What about a family court judge? Do you think they'll just take my word for it that I can't afford what they're asking?

Income taxes are based on ability to pay. People who make less money have to pay less. The IRS does ask you if you can afford a tax. That's what tax filing is. That's literally how they are designed. This is an impressive self-own.

No one is proposing taking a person's word for it when they say what they can pay. Prorating requires proof of income just like you would in any progressive scheme. Lying about income is punishable just like it is in any progressive scheme. The way you initially argued, you seemed to presume that a person can make so little money that they won't have to pay anything at all. That's why I pointed out sensible prorating would and does have minimum payments.

If a person refuses reasonable diversion options, that's when you look at either loss of privilege or jail depending on what it is we are talking about. If it's library fines, a person should just be temporarily banned from the library for a period of time. If it's a civil loss from stealing, then jail might be appropriate. In most cases, failure to pay should result in a person's credit being destroyed, but there are many different kinds of fines that can be levied and the response depends on the specific issue in question. That's why I specifically said that jail should not be a front-line response.

[_Kevin Graham]

What if they don't do their community service? Oh yes, more lawyers and court costs to the taxpayer for some never ending diversion program.

Seriously, would the IRS just ask me if I could afford a tax? What about a family court judge? Do you think they'll just take my word for it that I can't afford what they're asking?

You do understand there is no debtors prison, right? If that weren't the case then Trump would have been jailed already six times over. Why do you think no American bank will do business with him anymore? The IRS doesn't have to take anyone's word for anything; they already know what, if anything, you can pay.

[_EAllusion]

My reference to Charles Dickens was based on his experience with and hatred of debtors' prisons. This is ordinary thought of as a barbaric relic of the past - quite possibly most recognizeable in Dickens' writings on class - but here in this thread finding debtors' prisons draconian is a symptom of being some kind of pinko-commie.

[_EAllusion]

You do understand there is no debtors prison, right? If that weren't the case then Trump would have been jailed already six times over. Why do you think no American bank will do business with him anymore? The IRS doesn't have to take anyone's word for anything; they already know what, if anything, you can pay.

The IRS does take your word for it. Filing taxes is just you telling them how much taxable income you have. They reserve the right to check your honesty by doing an audit.

[_Jesse Jackson Jr]

That's why I pointed out sensible prorating would and does have minimum payments.

They have a billboard sign on I-40 in Memphis that says, "Pay your 10 year old traffic tickets at half price." I hope that's not what you mean by sensible prorating. Maybe you're not that far out there personally, but places like inner city Memphis are the result of your liberal policies.

The IRS doesn't have to take anyone's word for anything; they already know what, if anything, you can pay.

Oh really? So everyone reports every transaction made on the black market, paid to every illegal immigrant, every cash illegal drug sale, etc?

[_EAllusion]

They have a billboard sign on I-40 in Memphis that says, "Pay your 10 year old traffic tickets at half price." I hope that's not what you mean by sensible prorating. Maybe you're not that far out there personally, but places like inner city Memphis are the result of your liberal policies.

That's called amnesty. It's routinely used by government agencies at all levels to collect overdue debts. In fact, it's a practice universal to debt collection. For 10 years overdue, a 50% settlement is actually a lot more than what civil debt collectors would demand. It's, obviously, not the same thing as adjusting the level of an initial fine based on ability to pay.

I fully appreciate what, or rather who, you are referring to by routinely citing "inner city Memphis" Ajax. You should just say it and be more above the board about who you are. As best I can tell, Memphis doesn't even actually prorate fines. You seem to have confused it with this.

Doc, correctly, referred to Scandanavia is a place where fines are prorated. People pay fines based on a multiplier against their daily income. There's your example.

Oh really? So everyone reports every transaction made on the black market, paid to every illegal immigrant, every cash illegal drug sale, etc?

I almost immediately assumed that you'd respond to income reporting by arguing that fraudulent reporting occurs, therefore it cannot be used. You discourage fraudulent reporting by attaching penalties to it. You try to minimize it while understanding that a small amount of fraud is not a basis to discourage doing the right thing.

[_EAllusion]

Here's a fun debtors' prison story:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... 44178aae88

In August 2016, “Mother A,” an African-American resident of Jackson, was traveling through Pearl while looking for employment. She was a passenger in a friend’s car, and her child rode with them in a car seat. When the car was stopped for a minor traffic violation, it was discovered that both adults had outstanding warrants for routine misdemeanor offenses. Upon arresting the women, the officer contacted DHS claiming that the child was “abandoned” as a result of the women being detained. The baby’s grandmother arrived on the scene within minutes, yet the officer still insisted that the child be taken before Judge [John] Shirley at the Pearl Youth Court. Less than half an hour later, Judge Shirley awarded custody to the baby’s grandmother. An order was later entered prohibiting “Mother A” from having any contact with her baby until court fees were paid in full.

The mother was barred from contact for 14 of the baby's first 18 months of life. The response here from, well, two people, seems to channel an almost sociopathic level of callousness by arguing that if you don't want to do the time, then don't do the crime. That this is far, far too draconian for the offense - not paying court fees - is completely lost.

[_EAllusion]

Why wouldn't you prorate fines? If a fine is supposed to represent a penalty for an undesired act, don't you want members of the public to experience an equal amount of hurt for it? A flat fine of a few hundred dollars is inconsequential to a wealthy person and devastating to a poor person. Why are we providing so much more discouragement to the poor person than the wealthy person? If you instead make them pay a % of their income, then it affects them more equally. Even that's more of a flat-tax and the hit is more easily absorbed the more money you have. Don't you prefer flat taxes Ajax?

To truly equalize it, you'd have to adjust the % based on income. Your number of "days" would scale to your income level.

[_Maxine Waters]

Don't you prefer flat taxes Ajax?

I'm not convinced that prorated fines act as a deterrent. Having lived on $8/hr and having lived on $150k/year, I think I felt more sting from tithing the more I earned. When I made $8/hr, 10% was still a trivial amount and really didn't make much difference either way. At $150k, it's the price of new automobile.