God’s grace

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msnobody
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Re: God’s grace

Post by msnobody »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon Feb 13, 2023 9:47 pm
Dr. Shades wrote:
Mon Feb 13, 2023 9:56 am
I believe "grace" when it comes to God is akin to when a regular human walks past an ant hill and DOESN'T kick it to smithereens: Sure, he could condemn us or damn us with impunity, but refrains because it would be immoral to do so.
Adding to the simple example of mercy above, the way I conceive of Grace is Compassion. Jesus ostensibly felt compassion for humanity, as did God, and they taught humans through word and deed to level up our compassion for one another. If there’s one unifying principle we’ll need to achieve ‘heaven’ it’ll be won through increasing our compassion toward everything. So, the grace God and Jesus showed us is probably compassion. Humanity’s gotta level up on that one.

- Doc
Well said, Doctor.
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Re: God’s grace

Post by Fence Sitter »

huckelberry wrote:
Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:21 pm
Fence Sitter wrote:
Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:31 pm
Maybe if we both better understand each other we might understand ourselves better too.

For me, the problem I have with the concept of Grace, or eschatological beliefs in general, is the pure size of the universe.
If humans hold some special place in God's plan than why create the universe for them, why not just the solar system or maybe a small galaxy? Why an entire universe? If humans do not hold such a place, why worship a God who doesn't view us in such a way?

I know that is a side question but maybe someone can give a explanation of Grace that helps me understand the answer to my question above.
I do not understand why you would imagine the whole universe is just for us. Maybe God likes star clusters. Maybe there are millions of planets with interesting species living there. Some could even be better and more interesting than us.

Do you respect God and feel gratitude for life only if we are the only ones?
Hi Huckelberry,

I am asking questions about God and grace, not making a statement of what I believe.

"If humans hold a special place in God's plan" was the preface to "why create a whole universe for them?"

I realize there might be a second option, one in which humans hold a special place in God's plan but the entire universe still wasn't created in order to meet that end. But, remember this is a Mormon forum, and in Mormon eschatology, mankind is the pinnacle of God's work. So in order to understand what msnobody meant by Grace in her question I was trying to delve a bit further into her view of God. They are tied together in my view.
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malkie
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Re: God’s grace

Post by malkie »

huckelberry wrote:
Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:21 pm
Fence Sitter wrote:
Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:31 pm
Maybe if we both better understand each other we might understand ourselves better too.

For me, the problem I have with the concept of Grace, or eschatological beliefs in general, is the pure size of the universe. If humans hold some special place in God's plan than why create the universe for them, why not just the solar system or maybe a small galaxy? Why an entire universe? If humans do not hold such a place, why worship a God who doesn't view us in such a way?

I know that is a side question but maybe someone can give a explanation of Grace that helps me understand the answer to my question above.
I do not understand why you would imagine the whole universe is just for us. Maybe God likes star clusters. Maybe there are millions of planets with interesting species living there. Some could even be better and more interesting than us.

Do you respect God and feel gratitude for life only if we are the only ones?
Never mind star clusters, or asterisms, or any of these common configurations of bodies.

If god existed, I suspect s/he might have a predilection for Klemperer rosettes. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klemperer_rosette)

If s/he's a Larry Niven fan (easy to imagine that being the case), s/he might prefer a Kemplerer rosette.
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Don Bradley
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Re: God’s grace

Post by Don Bradley »

[consolidating this with the post below]
Last edited by Don Bradley on Thu Feb 16, 2023 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: God’s grace

Post by Don Bradley »

One question on which I think we can all agree is that Ms. Nobody, despite disagreeing with almost everyone else on this forum in her religious beliefs, is a model of kindness and etiquette.

In light of that, would everyone agree that responding to her question on this thread for other believers in God's grace while starting new threads for, say, atheist arguments against God's existence would show a well deserved reciprocity?

Don
Last edited by Don Bradley on Thu Feb 16, 2023 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: God’s grace

Post by Don Bradley »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon Feb 13, 2023 9:47 pm
Adding to the simple example of mercy above, the way I conceive of Grace is Compassion. Jesus ostensibly felt compassion for humanity, as did God, and they taught humans through word and deed to level up our compassion for one another. If there’s one unifying principle we’ll need to achieve ‘heaven’ it’ll be won through increasing our compassion toward everything. So, the grace God and Jesus showed us is probably compassion. Humanity’s gotta level up on that one.

- Doc
Doc,

I love this. Well said.

Jesus' parable of the two debtors is a great example of how God's forgiveness of us models how we are to forgive others. Since the lord in the parable forgave the the debt of the servant who owed him a phenomenal amount of money, it followed that the servant was to similarly forgive the debt of another servant who owed him far less. And, as the first servant's failure to forgive shows, we do indeed as species need to level up considerably on that. We're inclined to overlook our own need for forgiveness in considering how much we should forgive others.

The emphasis in Christian ethics on showing mercy and forgiveness to others grows directly out of the sense that God has shown mercy and forgiveness to us.

Don
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Re: God’s grace

Post by Don Bradley »

On how I see grace, there's so much to say that it's hard to know where to begin.

One thing I would say is that everything is grace. Given that I didn't create myself, the world, other people, goodness itself, all the good things and enjoyments of life, all of these come to me as sheer grace.

What could I possibly have done to earn existence in the first place before I was made? Obviously nothing, since I wasn't there to earn it. So, my very being is grace, and everything else I receive in virtue of existing is just grace upon grace.

Don
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Kishkumen
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Re: God’s grace

Post by Kishkumen »

Don Bradley wrote:
Thu Feb 16, 2023 7:12 am
One thing I would say is that everything is grace. Given that I didn't create myself, the world, other people, goodness itself, all the good things and enjoyments of life, all of these come to me as sheer grace.

What could I possibly have done to earn existence in the first place before I was made? Obviously nothing, since I wasn't there to earn it. So, my very being is grace, and everything else I receive in virtue of existing is just grace upon grace.

Don
Nicely put!
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Re: God’s grace

Post by Alphus and Omegus »

msnobody wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:24 pm
As an aside from the Daniel McClellan thread I wanted to ask of those who have a belief in the existence of God, if anyone would like to share, their personal on view of God’s grace.

My personal view probably does fall in line with the Apostle Paul’s view, but it is God’s grace and not Paul who owns or dispenses that grace.
As an agnostic, I don't rule out the possibility that there might be creator(s) in the universe. But the idea that creator beings (a.k.a. gods) could be perceived to have "grace" at all seems to be a very anthrocentric notion, and seems rather absurd if you actually believe in timeless, infinite beings.

Eternal gods do not have morality, because they exist outside of time, space, and ethics. The very idea that gods' ways are indecipherable to humans by definition means that specks of atomic dust temporarily held together could not possibly impute "grace" or any other moral characteristic to godlike beings. It would be even more absurd than protozoans analyzing human behaviors from their vantage point. They cannot even begin to comprehend us.
Last edited by Alphus and Omegus on Thu Feb 16, 2023 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: God’s grace

Post by Fence Sitter »

Don Bradley wrote:
Thu Feb 16, 2023 6:57 am
One question on which I think we can all agree is that Ms. Nobody, despite disagreeing with almost everyone else on this forum in her religious beliefs, is a model of kindness and etiquette.
I agree and I don't believe anyone has said otherwise.
Don Bradley wrote:
Thu Feb 16, 2023 6:57 am
In light of that, would everyone agree that responding to her question on this thread for other believers in God's grace while starting new threads for, say, atheist arguments against God's existence would show a well deserved reciprocity?

Don
Sorry, but when people ask questions, I think it is totally appropriate to respond with questions that try to understand what their questions even mean. MsNobody is asking about God's grace, to me it would be helpful to understand what she means by God.

And, it is nice to see you here again.
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