Interview with Schmo

[Gunnar]

Thanks for starting this thread, Jersey Girl. I learned much that is both interesting and admirable about both you and some schmo from reading it. I always liked both of you, but I find both of you even a bit more interesting and likeable than I did before.

[Gunnar]

Great questions and great answers. Thank you.

Amen to that!

[Gunnar]

One more Q for you: Would you self describe as atheist or agnostic? Or what?

I consider myself one who disagrees with people who claim a god exists. People say a god exists. Others believe in several. I simply disagree, primarily because I've never heard a good reason to believe any god exists, nor have I ever heard a believable god described.

So I'm a disagree-er. Disagreeism on the question of theism?

You couldn't have come closer than that to describing how I now feel about the existence of God.

I don't think I could ever honestly claim that I had a firm testimony that the LDS Church, though I tried hard to acquire one, because everyone I loved the most expected that of me. Eventually I came to the realization that Moroni's Promise in Moroni 10:3-5 and Alma's advice in Alma 32 for how to gain a firm testimony of the truth of both the church and the Book of Mormon were nothing more than prescriptions for how to go about deluding oneself.

Unlike you, though, I did enjoy much of the cultural activities associated with the Church, and even much of the music. I often served as chorister in leading the singing, especially in priesthood meetings, and knew by heart and could sing all four parts, from bass to soprano, of many of the most popular hymns in the official LDS hymnbook. My voice used to have that much range. It took me a bit longer than you, though, to become disillusioned with the Church and with religion in general. I guess I'm not quite as smart as you are.

[Gunnar]

Let me be explicit about something.

Some of the finest people I've met in my life have been members of one church or another. When I said, "lying is the root of all religion" I'm really talking about the culture of religion, and not how people live their day to day lives. Most people have their church life and their real world life, and they kind of separate the two. I would never mean to suggest that religious people are 100% dishonest, because that's crazy. I've met many very honest religious people. I don't think they are consciously lying when they talk about their faith. I just think they are perpetuating a tradition of telling comforting platitudes, often at the expense of the truth.

I'm really talking about the religious content creators, the people who hand down the rules for the various franchises to follow. Those guys are flat out lying, mostly about who they are.

That's exactly how I feel about religion in general.

[yellowstone123]

I consider myself one who disagrees with people who claim a god exists. People say a god exists. Others believe in several. I simply disagree, primarily because I've never heard a good reason to believe any god exists, nor have I ever heard a believable god described.

So I'm a disagree-er. Disagreeism on the question of theism?

You couldn't have come closer than that to describing how I now feel about the existence of God.

I don't think I could ever honestly claim that I had a firm testimony that the LDS Church, though I tried hard to acquire one, because everyone I loved the most expected that of me. Eventually I came to the realization that Moroni's Promise in Moroni 10:3-5 and Alma's advice in Alma 32 for how to gain a firm testimony of the truth of both the church and the Book of Mormon were nothing more than prescriptions for how to go about deluding oneself.

Unlike you, though, I did enjoy much of the cultural activities associated with the Church, and even much of the music. I often served as chorister in leading the singing, especially in priesthood meetings, and knew by heart and could sing all four parts, from bass to soprano, of many of the most popular hymns in the official LDS hymnbook. My voice used to have that much range. It took me a bit longer than you, though, to become disillusioned with the Church and with religion in general. I guess I'm not quite as smart as you are.

Imagine being told a person can know the truth of all things repeatedly and that the Book of Mormon setting is off the continent and into another hemisphere. Imagine.

[Gunnar]

Imagine being told a person can know the truth of all things repeatedly and that the Book of Mormon setting is off the continent and into another hemisphere. Imagine.

Yes. I have recently been studying the books 1491 and 1493 by Charles Mann in which he goes into great detail about what we have discovered about what the Americas were like before Columbus "discovered" the New World, based on archeological research and deciphering the writings of its own ancient inhabitants and civilizations, which were far more advanced and extensive than most people realize. Their largest cities were larger and more populous than any of the largest and most advanced cities existing in Europe at the time Columbus set out on his voyage of discovery. They were in some ways actually more advanced than contemporary Europeans! Among the telling advantages that Europeans had over the most populous and advanced indigenous inhabitants were horses, guns and steel weapons and tools. By far the most telling advantage, though, was one the Europeans didn't even realize they had -- relative immunity to a wide range of potentially deadly diseases to which no indigenous Americans had ever been exposed. This deserves a whole new thread of its own, though. The only relevance this has to this thread is how all this evidence totally and irrevocably destroys the truth claims of the Book of Mormon about the ancient inhabitants of pre-Columbian America, which is a big reason why Schmo and I no longer believe in the religion in which we were brought up.

[yellowstone123]

I agree Gunner. Shulem has a great post about Book of Mormon settings. BYU might say Central of South America is most likely Central of South America, which moves you off the American Continent and into another hemisphere. Mormonism passed out pamphlets that showed a resurrected Christ standing in front of a Central American temple. People in Utah have web pages that will send you on a tour in the Book of Mormon area. It's incredible.

I raise my hand and say, 'my grandpa in Rochester NY use to travel through a narrow neck of land to see my Grandma in Toronto Canada. I think I know the Book of Mormon settings, but never Niagara Falls.

[Jersey Girl]

I'm so sorry I couldn't get back here to go through your post, Schmo. I hit a few in real life bumps in the road and just didn't have it in me. I think I did make a post during that time but I don't even remember what it was!

So let's go and see what you have here. Apologies in advance if I mess up the formatting here.

Do you mind saying where you went when you left home? Did you have a relative to help you out? Feel free to pass on this question if it feels like too much disclosure.

I was already going to be moving in with a friend's family in the summer after graduating high school. I ended up moving in a little earlier than that. I didn't leave home over the church, though. It was more a realization after moving out that I didn't have to subject myself to church any more.

That freedom you must've felt was kind of a nice bonus then!

Did you mostly never believe it? If so, do you remember what made your antenna go up? Red flag? What didn't make sense?

I was at a fireside (an extra-curricular church meeting - not sure how else to describe that) and a guy gave a talk on his conversion story. I was about 9 at the time. He talked about hearing the Joseph Smith story for the first time and his reaction was, "You guys actually believe that?" It was the first time I'd ever heard anyone question or mock the story, and I got stuck ruminating on whether I believed it. He went on to say he prayed and received a testimony, but I was stuck on his initial, more relevant first reaction.

Up to that point, I went to church because my family did, and I accepted the stories like I accepted Santa Claus. So yeah, I'd say the seeds of doubt were planted at about age 9.

Wow that was bold of him to say. (I know what a fireside is but have never been to one.) So I think what you're saying here is that you heard someone for the very first time kind of smart off at Mormonism and it triggered something for you. I think I get that. In my first years on an online forum, I recall atheists raising issues that I'd never considered before. So what that triggered in me, was a strong desire to learn more and I did. Also I want to say this. I spent a good 10 to maybe 15 year period totally away from church. I wanted nothing to do with it at all. During that time I did everything I wasn't supposed to do. Call it a period of rebellion if you want. I call it turning away. The thing is is that I thought God didn't care about me at all and if you think about it, I never really lost belief in God. I just thought he didn't care about me so I kind of, well, I guess I said screw you. I think there was a lot of unpacked psychological baggage involved in that whole thing.

I think I get that. You didn't like the whole scene that constitutes religion. It was a giant turn off to you. Maybe you felt like it was too confining or that people are hypocrites or something.

The hypocrisy was unbearable. It's not an overt hypocrisy; it's subtle, and it's entirely contained within the show everyone puts on for each other at church gatherings. There is what I felt was a fake niceness about everyone. People always talk about how nice Mormons are. I think it's a veneer.

When discussing LDS culture, I used to refer to that as "window dressing". I was close friends with an LDS woman and I vividly recall her cussing her kids out on a Saturday night because she had so much pressure on her for Sunday. She taught Primary at the time (was later Primary President) and didn't prepare her lessons until the kids went to bed the night before, often running out late at night to make copies or whatever. When she and I would talk I remember her telling me, "Sometimes I sit in church, look around, and think about how much I hate all of them". That was a stark contrast to how I felt about the congregation I was in though for sure my church had it's own stuff going on. That's the last church I went to, the one I left for a variety of reasons. I have more stories about that but I don't think they are a good fit for this thread and I've told them many times in Terrestrial.

One small one though. Her daughter is the reason I went up against my own pastors at one point. Her daughter and my own child attended each other's church. One Wednesday night her daughter was at a youth activity with my child. One of the adults leading the group said that 'Mormon's don't believe in God'. I have no idea how the topic came up but when my lady friend drove the kids home, she called me as soon as she landed to tell me that her daughter was crying hysterically. I could hear her in the background when she said 'All those Baptists are bitches!' and crying from her little gut. I immediately told my friend to hang up and I'd call her back. Then I dialed the church number and scheduled a meeting for the next day with the youth pastor. Called her back and told her that. Went to the meeting and pretty much lit into him. During that time he made several comments such as 'Well, they don't believe in God', 'The goal of a Mormon woman is to become an eternal incubator'. I maintained my cool but inside I was reeling, so pissed off! Suffice it to say that I humbled him in my own way and got him to admit that the comment was inappropriate and that the family was due an apology. Anyway, called my lady friend and told her the whole discussion but left out those insulting parts. Then...she asked me 'Jersey, did he tell you that you couldn't be friends with me?'...and THAT Is when my attenna went up. I told her no, that he didn't have that kind of authority over me. Anyway, she was crying and I think pretty appreciativ3e that I would do what I did. She didn't want the apology and she didn't want to return to our church but she did here and there. I couldn't forget her comment and wondered if her Bishop could tell her not to be friends with someone even though she had free agency. It didn't sit right with me.

And THAT, Schmo is how I ended up online investigating Mormonism starting with RFM and then finally landed on my first board where I stayed for 10 years. I've said this before, but my first post ever made online was to Gunnar. That's one of the reasons he is so special to me to this very day and how we know each other so well. We're going on 24 years of knowing each other this October 14th.

Just as a matter of sharing, I was infant baptized Presbyterian (Scottish culture) but I was raised up in a non-denomination church but the pastor was schooled at Bob Jones University. I've attended base chapel Protestant and Catholic services. I've been to Lutheran (Catholic lite!), Presbyterian (can't recall what it was like) and I went to a Hindu service for a young man who committed suicide, the son of a co-worker*, I went to show support, I attended memorial services at one Mega Church (don't like those at all) and a Cowboy Church (loved it). Also have been to LDS Ward and Stake--baptism, Traveling Road Show, Ward talent show, a really nice Christmas gathering at the Ward where the members dressed in period clothing from the time of Christ's birth and it was set up sort of like a little village with peddlers and stuff you could sample--food, etc. I can't pick which one of those activities I liked best. I liked them all. I've been to Girl's Activity and did some training support for the LDS Boy Scout troop camping efforts through the local Ward.

*I had visited my coworker at her home and she helped me understand that because her son took his own life that he essentially destroyed his soul and ceased to exist. Schmo, it was SO sad but I knew right there and then I would go to the Hindu service. I'll show up just about anywhere to support a friend.

That's heartbreaking. I'd go too, to be honest. I've sat through a lot of religious services in support of friends and family. Totally understand.

Yep, I absolutely believe you would do the same. She was so despondent. The service was in a strip mall and it involved a video of what looked to me like a parade of some sort but I am sure it was a religious thing that I didn't understand. I sat in the back and was a good guest as I always try to be.

Would you say that you weren't a believer at that point and were just doing what was expected of you by your family and church culture? I was baptized by immersion at age 11 in a neighborhood church in my home town (my own church didn't have a baptismal pool at the time). It was summer and there were June bugs floating in the pool!

I was eight years old and more hyped about a milestone. It was my eighth birthday, which meant I was old enough to get baptized. It wasn't about entering into some covenant for me. It was about growing up. I'm a big boy now.

And I knew it would make people I depended on happy.

Oh, and as far as I remember, the baptismal font where I was dunked was very sanitary. I also remember it being wonderfully warm.

I get that! I think I felt that same way. I've been to an LDS child baptism and appreciated it very much. Sorry you guys didn't have June bugs floating in the pool. It makes for a good story!

That's SO different from me. I *loved* church music and still do. I actually feel like I could easily belong to a Black Gospel type church. Think that would be the perfect fit for me. (I've been saying that for stinking years, I should just go and try it).

Well, listen, if the services I went to had a band and an African American choir singing gospel tunes, some kind of Sister Act, I think I'd have been all about it. But that's not Mormons. I do love seeing those movies with all the people standing up and clapping along with the rocking gospel music.

I'd totally be into it! One thing I don't like or feel comfortable with is the Mega Church type musical presentations. It's like a rock concert that, in my old school view, doesn't set the church apart from the world. I think it actually tries to BE part of the world. I get why they do that, I just don't like it at all. Again, old school preference. I do also like Old School and Bluegrass Gospel, but Black Gospel has got to be my favorite.

I totally get the public speaking piece! I credit my early experiences in Jr. Choir and our SS Christmas plays with my ability to understand and give cues, to put together a program, ceremony, or lecture that flows well, and be confident speaking in front of a crowd. I'm glad you got something from your church experiences to take into your future. It's really a good feeling to feel that confidence!

The biggest thing was getting in front of a large crowd when I was really young and having an accepting, forgiving crowd. I could have stage time for free. I did it enough times growing up that it's never been a fear of mine. Standing in front of people doesn't scare me at all. Being unprepared does, however.

Agree 100% about preparation. I'm not at all afraid to stand in front of a large group of professionals to present or college class for lecture. If it's my topic, I'm all over it.

What exactly about Judgment Day? The going to Outer Darkness or Hell for eternity? Or is it that there could be a final judgment at all...for eternity?

It's the idea that we are being tested without a clear definition of the rules. And also, yes, the idea that what you do in an 8 to 100 year lifespan will determine your fate for the rest of eternity. To me, those ideas are simply outrageous, and I'm disappointed anyone might be taken by them.

If someone wants to sell me on being a good person, sell me on the practical, real world benefits of being a good person, and I'll do it. If you threaten me with hellfire and damnation, I'm going to assume you're a charlatan and politely tell you to “F” off, New Jersey style.

I think I see this differently. One thing though, where you say, If someone wants to sell me on being a good person, sell me on the practical, real world benefits of being a good person, and I'll do it. Virtually every church I was a member of taught life applications. I don't know of the LDS Church does that. I would categorize that as showing the beneits of being a good person...though I don't think it's all about being a good person...it's about following the teachings of Christianity. If that makes sense. Bringing oneself into line with God, obedience, and developing the qualities of Christ that we see presented in the New Testament. Reflecting Christ.

Okay that right there makes you a pizza loser in my eyes. How COULD you put that abject crap on your pizza? Sheesh. You're completely hopeless! Hawaiian. Seriously who does that?

I will refer you to the outtakes thread for my overall reaction, which still stands.

by the way, pineapple apparently is really good for helping to rebuild your muscles after a workout. Just saying. Could be a wives tale. Or a wives of guys who work out tale.

Schmo...lean in. Pineapple on pizza is just not done. It's gross. Stop it.

I love doing this with people who are willing! I'd rather do this than any other option I have on this whole board.

It was fun for me too (I inadvertently deleted the rest of your comment!)

I feel like we might have done this before but the questions and answers are a bit different. I like it very much! Too much probably. I blame my personality type.

According to that thread you started you think I'm a liar. That's okay. I can live with it. I don't mind being thought of as delusional either.

I think you say a lot of things that are unverifiable, and that you repeat ideas that are questionable. I don't think you are a liar. I think you are sincere. I just think that religion is built on lies, and so if one is involved in religion, they are part of the cycle.

You strike me as more spiritual than religious.

I think it depends on how you define religious. Definitely spiritual. Nailed me. Also intuitive. I rely heavily on intuition.

One more Q for you: Would you self describe as atheist or agnostic? Or what?

I consider myself one who disagrees with people who claim a god exists. People say a god exists. Others believe in several. I simply disagree, primarily because I've never heard a good reason to believe any god exists, nor have I ever heard a believable god described.

So I'm a disagree-er. Disagreeism on the question of theism?

[/quote]

Fair enough I think! That's interesting how you articulated that! I feel like I had another follow up question in my head the other day for this thread but it fell out. If it falls back in I'll pose it to you!

[Jersey Girl]

I see there are other posts you made that warrant reply. I'll get to those!

p.s. Gunnar is simply sucking up to you. I hope you know that by now. He's so obvious.

[ajax18]

I agree Gunnar. Shulem has a great post about Book of Mormon settings. BYU might say Central of South America is most likely Central of South America, which moves you off the American Continent and into another hemisphere. Mormonism passed out pamphlets that showed a resurrected Christ standing in front of a Central American temple. People in Utah have web pages that will send you on a tour in the Book of Mormon area. It's incredible.

I raise my hand and say, 'my grandpa in Rochester NY use to travel through a narrow neck of land to see my Grandma in Toronto Canada. I think I know the Book of Mormon settings, but never Niagara Falls.

The heartland theory makes more sense to me. The promised land is in Jackson County Missouri and the midwest of North America, not Guatemala.