Reverend wrote:Interesting take, Dean Robbers. Relief from drudgery and nonsense was what I felt at the time for sure. Now I see that drudgery and nonsense is a ubiquitous problem. You can’t escape it. Leaving the LDS Church was only temporary relief from certain brands of drudgery and nonsense.
I'm saddened to learn of our differing experiences here. As I pointed out in my post, there were new challenges that I've experienced that I might have avoided by remaining in the fold. However, drudgery and nonsense is not one of them, that problem is solved. Sure, there are difficult patches with my career or things like home and yard maintenance, but it never rises to the level of the burden of church services and duties. And even if they did, then even better to have the additional time off on Sunday.
drudgery fatalism would be a very bad thing and I really hope you were exaggerating.
I have to agree with this.
Everyone should be doing something exciting with their second Saturdays! At least some of the time.
I'm saddened to learn of our differing experiences here. As I pointed out in my post, there were new challenges that I've experienced that I might have avoided by remaining in the fold. However, drudgery and nonsense is not one of them, that problem is solved. Sure, there are difficult patches with my career or things like home and yard maintenance, but it never rises to the level of the burden of church services and duties. And even if they did, then even better to have the additional time off on Sunday.
drudgery fatalism would be a very bad thing and I really hope you were exaggerating.
I am heartened that your experience is so positive. I wouldn’t want any less than the best for you, and anything good is gratifying to hear of.
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
Reverend wrote:Interesting take, Dean Robbers. Relief from drudgery and nonsense was what I felt at the time for sure. Now I see that drudgery and nonsense is a ubiquitous problem. You can’t escape it. Leaving the LDS Church was only temporary relief from certain brands of drudgery and nonsense.
I'm saddened to learn of our differing experiences here. As I pointed out in my post, there were new challenges that I've experienced that I might have avoided by remaining in the fold. However, drudgery and nonsense is not one of them, that problem is solved. Sure, there are difficult patches with my career or things like home and yard maintenance, but it never rises to the level of the burden of church services and duties. And even if they did, then even better to have the additional time off on Sunday.
drudgery fatalism would be a very bad thing and I really hope you were exaggerating.
Seriously. As an example, i serve on a library board and across covid, one of our challenges was to figure out cleaning and disinfecting issues. AT NO TIME, did we consider asking people to do industrial level cleaning for free, as a voluntold person, the way the lds church does, which is just one example of the drudgery lds members face which is in no way duplicated in the average life.
There are many examples like this i could give. The drudgery ended when the lds church conscripted service ended.
I hope we can all agree that our personal experiences are in no small part subjective and that not all people find the same things to be dreary and drudgery. If you find life to be rewarding, then I am happy for you. I am sure many LDS people do too. That does not mean any of us would necessarily feel the same happiness if we were to trade places with them. I begrudge no person their happiness.
Last edited by Kishkumen on Thu Aug 31, 2023 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
It was in a way pure hell but then I got to meet what I believe is the presence of God.
In fall of 1980 I entered the MTC to go on a mission to the Ohio Cleveland mission. (Think 1978 Deer Hunter country) The Russian Orthodox Church is in downtown Cleveland.
I go into the mission, not wanting to go, and only to be with the girl I loved who just graduated from high school and was entering her first year at BYU. I had to get my mission over with. I just turned 19. I thought there was no way she was not going to last until fall of 1982 without getting married.
I came home after a month in the field. I then placed myself in a situation that I shouldn’t have a broke a covenant made in the temple. Yes, that covenant. I drove straight to the bishop’s house and woke him up. I told him what had happened.
You see they never released me, and I was still a missionary at home suffering from depression and you know based on things I went through it was highly likely I would be suffering from depression and needed depression therapy and medication. Not missionary work. Not for now.
For the first month of my mission, my trainer who was also a district leader who had a car drove around to see people he had given Book of Mormons to. They gave the book back some promising to pray for us. This is a small town just outside Akron.
I had depression so I also had problems learning and I could not remember the discussions about the apostate church and the restoration through Joseph Smith. If I did it again, I would only learn the first discussion and giver it 100 times a day.
So I came home and after two momthI broke THE covenant and the Stake President released me that Sunday.
About a month later I was called in around March 1981 to see the Stake Presidency. It seems that Salt Lake wanted to know why I wasn’t returning to the mission field, and they told them what happened. They then said he was a missionary and a disciplinary court needs to be held. I rode my bike to the Stake Center, got my letter and appeared for my hearing. It was like a McCarthy hearing. I walked into a room of all white males. There was a reel-to-reel tape recorder, a mike to speak into, twelve high council members, the stake presidency and a stake clerk to record. I said everything. They kept going back to pre-mission days saying everything needs to come out now. I told them the truth. I had been chaste until after I came home. Since I went straight to the bishop, they put me on probation. The bishop said they could have excommunicated me. He attended and when I left, he spoke to the high council.
Three months later. I[m 19 and have hormones and Jezebels are walking Sunset Blvd Between La Brea and Fairfax. Some of these are what I would consider tens. I’m a sucker for a girl with dark brown eyes and brown hair and I love Natalie Wood; and when one says for fifty dollars, we can direct you to so and so drive and go to an an empty apartment and this and this was going to happening. Well, I was already in a marginalized community of early-returned missionaries and took her up for her offer. It happened nine more times. One Sunday the 2nd Counselor of the stake presidency asks me to meet with him and tell him when I’m going back to Ohio. I tell him what has been happening in Hollywood over the last two months. He says, “Karl, the people that did this is the Book of Mormon were cast out This is summer in 1981 and I’m about to turn 20 in early September. I go and get my letter and attend the court and say what has been happening since my last court. I’m asked to leave the meeting. After about five minutes I sit in the meeting. The Stake President gives some of the high counselor’s time to talk. The six who are supposed to support me just say to call them if I. need someone to talk to. I also learn of one lone High Counselor who strongly opossed and expressed that he could not even fathom the sanctions the court was going to expose on me.
The verdict excommunication.
I asked to leave as I thought I was going to be sick, but I. needed to go into a side room and just let six months of fear go and cried and cried and cried. They took me to a bathroom where I washed my face and prayed for God to kill me. I was tired of being hurt. Even the girl at BYU treated me like a punching board.
I was now a missionary that came home early and was excommunicated too boot. I know what it means to be ostracized.
I mostly cried because I realized I had lost, the girl I loved and she and her TBM family would have nothing to be with me. Those were my thoughts.
I saw her a stake dances in the summer and she said she was trying to call me, but we couldn’t get together to talk.
Two things.: The night I was supposed to go to my second court my best friend (who also came home early) asked me to go home teaching with him and he would put by bike in the back of his wagon and drop me off at the Stake Center. So, I went to one home teaching session, and he dropped me off.
I was excommunicated.
Later that night someone alerted the stake president that I was riding my bike four miles home. He put my bike in the back of his truck and with me in the middle, the Stake President Driving and the second counselor by my side they dropped me off. My mom was a single mother and the did not come in and talk with her. It couldn’t have been true riding home on my bike I would have ridden into opposing traffic,
Come Sunday, summer 1981, they announce at Melchizedek Priesthood, I have been excommunicated. We have motor mouths on our street. Once husband calls his wife, a friend of my mom and tells her what was disclosed in Priesthood. I do not want to go to church but ask my mom to meet with the stake president. She already knows in full detail (because my dad made me tell him every detail as a street cop) of the first incident; They still want me to attend priesthood meetings and have me meet with LDS social services. Not to put the guy down but the LDS social services guy was a brand new minted MSW from BYU; I don’t think he had 3000 hours of supervisory counselling or passed his California boards. I needed a female Jewish Psychiatrist with 20 plus years of experience.
Any how my mom comes into the stake center the week after I was excommunicated. My nosy neighbor opens the door and says she feels so sorry for me. When my mom asks why, she says Karl, he’s been excommunicated.
I’ve talked about this before. After pushing my bike up to my porch and no one awake, I sat down laid on my bed and cried. I cried as hard as I have ever cried before. I was now marginalized. I knew the girl that was at BYU would have nothing to do with me. But then after an hour, a sweet, peaceful feeling came into the room and , and I felt the most warmth and kindness and grace and love ever. I laid on my mind, ust trying to experience what was happening and then I drifted off to sleep.
Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.
You are conditioned as a child by this religion to believe that you're never good enough, that you have to constantly be praying asking for forgiveness and repenting, constantly serving, always accepting callings and magnifying those callings because your everyday life just doesn't demand enough of your time, especially with a career, family and children, that Jesus expects you to do this and that all the time, you can't eat, drink or wear this or that, etc., etc., etc., yada, yada, yada. Ad nauseum. Once you realize the religion is a sham concocted by a con-man, it's like having the weight of the world off your shoulders and is very freeing! No sadness or happiness, just the feeling of being free, knowing that you just need to have faith in Christ and believe in him to be saved from the sins of this world, not dedicating 110% of your entire life to any religion!
That's a hell of a story, Yellowstone. It reminds me how utterly clueless the Church is.
Again, thanks, Gadianton. I always think if my five or six friends who didn’t go to church or were Protestant or Catholic saw me crying in the bathroom, they would have come to my aid immediately; asked me to explain what happened. They would have stayed by my side for a very long time.
P.S. the most amazing friend who never went to church and was born a year earlier would have been by my side day and might. He married in the early 80s and is still happily married to his wife. He never went to church. He was the salt of the earth.
Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.
That's a hell of a story, Yellowstone. It reminds me how utterly clueless the Church is.
Again, thanks, Gadianton. I always think if my five or six friends who didn’t go to church or were Protestant or Catholic saw me crying in the bathroom, they would have come to my aid immediately; asked me to explain what happened. They would have stayed by my side for a very long time.
P.S. the most amazing friend who never went to church and was born a year earlier would have been by my side day and might. He married in the early 80s and is still happily married to his wife. He never went to church. He was the salt of the earth.
This is one aspect that Mormon leaders make me mad.C ountless talks like Ballard's where will you go if you leave or the constant mantra that
warn against 'counterfeit' lifestyles.
I know many non-religious and religious people who are salt of the Earth type. Yet we have the likes of Brad Wilcox claiming other life choices are simply playing church. This arrogance really grates on people and once again shows why Mormons are one of the least liked religious groups.
