The truth hurts.

[Gadianton]

So, there was approved reading that covers questions like "don't add" and God having a body such as A Marvelous Work and a Wonder (NOT Mormon Doctrine, which was not approved and even my MP who had been buds with Bruce frowned on using it). But that's all optional. I don't recall even the most superficial question making it into the core training material. So any criticism invented after 1950 wouldn't have a chance. It seems like they snuck a few things in, I think an example of "building on common beliefs" was Ammon asking King Lamoni, "Believest thou that there is a Great Spirit?" because surely Ammon knew God had a body. Right?

[Fence Sitter]

How does one claim, on one hand, that God's ways are ultimately beyond human comprehension and, at the same time, claim that his or her own interpretations of those same ways are correct?

Funny that.

[Limnor]

So, there was approved reading that covers questions like "don't add" and God having a body such as A Marvelous Work and a Wonder (NOT Mormon Doctrine, which was not approved and even my MP who had been buds with Bruce frowned on using it). But that's all optional. I don't recall even the most superficial question making it into the core training material. So any criticism invented after 1950 wouldn't have a chance. It seems like they snuck a few things in, I think an example of "building on common beliefs" was Ammon asking King Lamoni, "Believest thou that there is a Great Spirit?" because surely Ammon knew God had a body. Right?

Right. Id offer the text goes a bit further than “building on common beliefs.” In Alma 18, after Ammon asks Lamoni about the “Great Spirit”, the narrator directly states, “And thus he was caught with guile.” That explicitly indicates guile—deceit, or trickery—is an acceptable method used by the God of truth. It can be seen as a confession about the method. If it were me I’d have left out the confession that I was using guile.

I think the exchange between Amulek and Zeezrom in Alma 11 is another example. Amulek’s answer of “No” to the question, “Is there more than one God?” is difficult to reconcile with later LDS theology unless he’s using that same guile.

For what it’s worth, in my hypothesis, these conversations represents exchanges between David Whitmer, Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith Jr, and Isaac Hale.

How does one claim, on one hand, that God's ways are ultimately beyond human comprehension and, at the same time, claim that his or her own interpretations of those same ways are correct?

Funny that.

Good observation. I think the difference is between claiming to have intimate knowledge of all of God’s thoughts and understanding some things God has revealed—seeing through a glass darkly. The risk is treating interpretations as though they were God’s own thoughts.

[Shulem]

...In Alma 18, after Ammon asks Lamoni about the “Great Spirit”, the narrator directly states, “And thus he was caught with guile.” That explicitly indicates guile—deceit, or trickery—is an acceptable method used by the God of truth. It can be seen as a confession about the method. If it were me I’d have left out the confession that I was using guile.

That is a very good point and is indicative of Joseph Smith's corrupted spiritual ways of a religious modus operandi (pious fraud) that effectively deceived everyone in his inner circle. It certainly seems like Smith's trickery (guile) is being demonstrated through Ammon.

Very interesting, indeed.

[Limnor]

That is a very good point and is indicative of Joseph Smith's corrupted spiritual ways of a religious modus operandi (pious fraud) that effectively deceived everyone in his inner circle. It certainly seems like Smith's trickery (guile) is being demonstrated through Ammon.

Very interesting, indeed.

Yes. I think Joseph “is” Ammon, and this conversation really happened sometime in the mid- to late 1820s between Joseph and Isaac Hale in Harmony PA, but was “translated” into an ancient setting. So it’s “true.”

[Shulem]

That is a very good point and is indicative of Joseph Smith's corrupted spiritual ways of a religious modus operandi (pious fraud) that effectively deceived everyone in his inner circle. It certainly seems like Smith's trickery (guile) is being demonstrated through Ammon.

Very interesting, indeed.

Yes. I think Joseph “is” Ammon, and this conversation really happened sometime in the mid- to late 1820s between Joseph and Isaac Hale in Harmony PA, but was “translated” into an ancient setting. So it’s “true.”

Very interesting, indeed. Makes me wonder just how many parallels are imbedded in the text by sneaky Joe.

[Limnor]

Yes. I think Joseph “is” Ammon, and this conversation really happened sometime in the mid- to late 1820s between Joseph and Isaac Hale in Harmony PA, but was “translated” into an ancient setting. So it’s “true.”

Very interesting, indeed. Makes me wonder just how many parallels are imbedded in the text by sneaky Joe.

You’ve already made a compelling case for Mormon functioning as a stand-in for Joseph Smith.

Do you see a correlation between Joseph and Nephi?

[Shulem]

Very interesting, indeed. Makes me wonder just how many parallels are imbedded in the text by sneaky Joe.

You’ve already made a compelling case for Mormon functioning as a stand-in for Joseph Smith.

Indeed: → Mormon at ages 11, 15, 24 is really Joseph Smith Jr., in disguise!

Do you see a correlation between Joseph and Nephi?

YES! Joseph Smith played the role of Nephi in the Book of Mormon.

I've made that very point and discussed this in several threads all over this board, for example, here are some dark points to that effect:

The God of the Book of Mormon was a cruel and vicious monster that yearned to bring about death and destruction upon those who opposed him. To me, the Jesus Christ of the Book of Mormon is the real SATAN, a man pretending to be holy but is really a ravenous wolf who devours his prey. Joseph Smith tasted and committed murder through him! Joseph Smith was a murderer in his heart!

The Book of Mormon is all about murder and more murder -- there is lots and lots of murder in the Book of Mormon BECAUSE that is what was on the author’s (Joseph Smith’s) mind! Murder was a fascination to Joseph Smith!

The Book of Mormon is founded upon the principle of murder and secret combinations. Nephi (Joseph Smith) murdered Laban for his brass plates because he wanted to know what it felt like to commit murder and slit the throat of another man. Joseph Smith wanted to taste human blood and did so by narrating stories of murder and mayhem.

The slaying of Laban or the officer in question is an incident of cold-blooded murder. There is no justification or excuse for Nephi running a drunken man through. It’s a violation of law in the civilized world and is a crime. There is no justification for murdering a man in his sleep or while drunk which is what seems is contained in both accounts. Joseph Smith allowed the darker side of his inner self emerge in expressing how he views God as a Being of retribution and punishment. It frightens me just a little to think what kind of devious acts the prophet Joseph Smith would have committed had he lived to continue his ministry in which he was determined that Jesus was going to return and come to Zion. There was a dark side to Joseph Smith that never played out!

Indeed, the story of Abraham being willing to murder his own son in cold blood to appease his imagined god is really sick and should turn anyone's stomach. The story in the Book of Mormon about Nephi cutting off the head of Laban is a low point for Book of Mormon morality lessons. It's just bad stuff. It was the author's (Smith) way of experiencing what it was like to kill. Smith was writing his own personal fantasy! But happiness and good living is available and found outside the realms of organized religion. Religionist reject that concept and threaten nonbelievers with hell or a lower kingdom if they refuse to join their organized religion. But today, more and more people are waking up and realizing that religion is not what it's cracked up to be.

[Limnor]

YES! Joseph Smith played the role of Nephi in the Book of Mormon.

So who is Laban and what are the brass plates?

[Shulem]

YES! Joseph Smith played the role of Nephi in the Book of Mormon.

So who is Laban and what are the brass plates?

I cannot say who Laban was, but in my mind he was not a brother of the prophet. I cannot recon Joseph fantasizing killing his dead brother. That is a path I simply cannot go/entertain due to certain guardrails in my own understanding. I suspect Laban was a fictional character in the mind of Joseph Smith who may have reminded him of someone known to the Smith family, more particular Joseph Smith Sr.

The plates were a representation of the holy Bible.

I hope that helps.