John Dehlin joins Mormonism LIVE to give the other side

[Marcus]

As an academic I am astonished at the number of Mormon academics who present pseudo-scientific and even non-scientific arguments as valid. Eventually those contorted arguments get simplified down to look like your examples. Then we end up with people like Peterson stating something like 'the supposed anachronisms in the Book of Mormon have been resolved.' which of course is absolutely not true, nor does it address the bigger picture. His readers believe him and then teach that distortion to the next generation.

I can see this. Maybe that’s the method. Reduce the problem until it isn’t really a problem anymore, then reduce the history until it never was a problem in the first place.

Well summarized. If someone feels they can't leave maybe that's the best they can do in reducing cognitive dissonance.

Here's an example from yesterday, on the mdd board:

“I think the Church has, in 200 years, come up with an impressive array of reasons to accept the Book of Mormon for what it claims to be. Our critics have not made nearly as much progress in those 200 years.”

Analytics (same username here and there) was quoting smac97.

It's a truly nonsensical statement, and smac is a practicing lawyer. That's a perfect example of the cognitive dissonance necessary to stay a fully believing lds.

[Limnor]

It's a truly nonsensical statement, and smac is a practicing lawyer. That's a perfect example of the cognitive dissonance necessary to stay a fully believing lds.

Right, it just doesn’t follow that saying that something could have happened proves that it did happen. Plausibility isn’t evidence.

It’s plausible that the Book of Mormon is autobiographical, but that’s not the same as proving so. That fellow is a lawyer you say? That in itself seems implausible…

Another example I’ve been seeing crop up in the internetosphere is the critique of Alma as a male name: “that old chestnut!” But showing that Alma could have been a male name is not the same as saying “the Book of Mormon is an ancient and true artifact.”

Impossibile becomes possible, possible becomes therefore true.

[Shulem]

Another example I’ve been seeing crop up in the internetosphere is the critique of Alma as a male name: “that old chestnut!” But showing that Alma could have been a male name is not the same as saying “the Book of Mormon is an ancient and true artifact.”

Alma Bound-baby?



I can hardly keep track of what I say let alone others.

This topic has been thoroughly discussed here:

Top 10 Falsifiable FAIRMORMON Claims ALMA

[Physics Guy]

"Maybe" it was never anything but a scam?? Do you truly believe there's a chance it was true as Smith stated?

No, there is no chance that everything Smith claimed was true. In fact the only way that anything at all that he claimed could be true is that maybe, in between his claims to be a great prophet, he once or twice slipped in something about the time of day, and it happened to be close to right for that moment, probably by mistake.

Smith's Restoration was more than Smith himself, though, because it did drag in thousands of other people. I think it's quite possible that they were all nothing but dupes, to the point that nothing positive that can be said about their whole experience. I'm willing to allow, though, that maybe some of them did have some kind of good reasons for joining Smith's movement, or maybe some of them did find some kind of real value in it. Even someone as hard-nosed as Doctor CamNC4Me perceived "something unique and kind of beautiful" in Mormonism at some point. Far be it from me, with no personal experience of Mormonism, to call that impossible.

Maybe some things are really just pretty darn good, with merits far outweighing their flaws, and everyone ought to get into them or behind them. On the other hand, I'm sure that lots of things are bad enough that there's no point in trying to sift through them to salvage anything. In between, though, it may be possible to find some good things mixed up with bad things together, and try to separate them, to concentrate and amplify the good parts. I figure that's probably worth trying, because looking for something that isn't even a little bit tainted is going to be a long search. To quote someone who had a lot more genuine inspiration than Joseph Smith ever did,

Out of the crooked timber of humanity, nothing entirely straight can be made.

[Marcus]

How does the saying go? 'There's nothing good in Mormonism that is unique to Mormonism.' Finding the good in human endeavor, in spite of or even because of the circumstance, is not the equivalent of saying that the circumstance itself was uniquely good.

[Rivendale]

How does the saying go? 'There's nothing good in Mormonism that is unique to Mormonism.' Finding the good in human endeavor, in spite of or even because of the circumstance, is not the equivalent of saying that the circumstance itself was uniquely good.

That quote brings back memories from years back ....slightly different wording.

That which is good about the church isn't unique, and that which is unique isn't good."

I can see this. Maybe that’s the method. Reduce the problem until it isn’t really a problem anymore, then reduce the history until it never was a problem in the first place.

Here's an example from yesterday, on the mdd board:

“I think the Church has, in 200 years, come up with an impressive array of reasons to accept the Book of Mormon for what it claims to be. Our critics have not made nearly as much progress in those 200 years.”

Analytics (same username here and there) was quoting smac97.

It's a truly nonsensical statement, and smac is a practicing lawyer. That's a perfect example of the cognitive dissonance necessary to stay a fully believing lds.

Smac also said this:

These days, Jacob Hansen and Jasmin Rappleye seem to be putting out a lot of good content in terms of defense.

He either hasn't read or listened to their work or he is purposely obtuse.

[MG 2.0]

"Maybe" it was never anything but a scam?? Do you truly believe there's a chance it was true as Smith stated?

No, there is no chance that everything Smith claimed was true. In fact the only way that anything at all that he claimed could be true is that maybe, in between his claims to be a great prophet, he once or twice slipped in something about the time of day, and it happened to be close to right for that moment, probably by mistake.

Smith's Restoration was more than Smith himself, though, because it did drag in thousands of other people. I think it's quite possible that they were all nothing but dupes, to the point that nothing positive that can be said about their whole experience. I'm willing to allow, though, that maybe some of them did have some kind of good reasons for joining Smith's movement, or maybe some of them did find some kind of real value in it. Even someone as hard-nosed as Doctor CamNC4Me perceived "something unique and kind of beautiful" in Mormonism at some point. Far be it from me, with no personal experience of Mormonism, to call that impossible.

Maybe some things are really just pretty darn good, with merits far outweighing their flaws, and everyone ought to get into them or behind them. On the other hand, I'm sure that lots of things are bad enough that there's no point in trying to sift through them to salvage anything. In between, though, it may be possible to find some good things mixed up with bad things together, and try to separate them, to concentrate and amplify the good parts. I figure that's probably worth trying, because looking for something that isn't even a little bit tainted is going to be a long search. To quote someone who had a lot more genuine inspiration than Joseph Smith ever did,

Out of the crooked timber of humanity, nothing entirely straight can be made.

One might argue, however, that with God’s help/influence crooked lines can be made straight. Or at least less crooked than without God’s help/influence.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=160757

Ah yes, there was a thread on this topic a while back. One of the ‘all time greats’ in my humble opinion.

Hello all. Just hopping in to see what’s going on. Hope everyone is healthy/well.

AI was not used in any way to put together this post.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

Welcome back MG. Glad to see you here again.

[Shulem]

Hello all. Just hopping in to see what’s going on. Hope everyone is healthy/well.

I was thinking of you today. Very interesting.

[Limnor]

One might argue, however, that with God’s help/influence crooked lines can be made straight. Or at least less crooked than without God’s help/influence.

I think we would all agree that Joseph was crooked.