Runtu wrote:I must be missing something, as, last I checked, Mormonism teaches that Jesus is fully God and fully man.
Hoops wrote:Open a new thread for rebuttal?
Jason Bourne wrote:Hoops wrote:Open a new thread for rebuttal?
Feel free to start a new thread but what would you like to rebut?
I see. So there are no different brands of Christianity, but there are, apparently, different levels of salvation.
There's the low end... the end at which, I suppose, God holds his nose and lets theologically confused Person X in heaven.
But ain't no way that theologically confused Person X gets the "true freedom" of Christ. Person X may get into heaven, but that's it. No true freedom.
I have no idea where this comes from.God holds his nose and lets theologically confused Person X in heaven.
jon wrote:Is the Mormon Church 'Christ Centred'?
the fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and the Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it ..." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 121).
At the most recent Conference the two most prevalent topics for talks were 'Service' and 'Obedience'. Jesus Christ ranked fourth.
On a Sunday, how much of the three hour schedule is devoted to Christ?
How many of the temple ordinances are Christ centred?
How much tithing gets spent on things Christ would spend it on?
How much time does a Missionary spend proselytysing from the New Testament vs the Book of Mormon?
How much of the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price is about Christ?
Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.
An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven—Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Chris
Christ Centred? The Church and it's leaders may truly desire to be a Christ Centred organization, but I don't think they are yet achieving it
Jersey Girl wrote:Jason,
Your post brings up something that I need to ask Hoops about.
Hoops....get yerself back on this thread, I mean like NOW.
:-D
So Hoops,
If Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, how does that make Jesus self-existent?
How could he always exist if he was begotten?
Huh?
Hoops wrote:At the low end... none.Just how much theology must one correctly grasped to be saved?That's a bit different. Others should probably chime in here, but I would say understanding who Jesus is, what He did, and what we are in Him is crucialJust how much theology must one correctly grasped to have "true freedom" in Christ?I don't think so.Moreover, how can a Calvinist believe in any sort of freedom? The very idea is absurd.
Basically, yes. There's more that could be said here, but that's the idea. But let me be clear, I have no idea if person X is forgiven and saved or not. I have no idea about you, or my children, or even my pastor. So saying that one person is saved and another is not just ain't my bag.You said "at the low end" one must not grasp any theology correctly to be saved. So the person gets into heaven but.....
That's correct. In a context that you know better than I, I rarely see or experience Mormons who enjoy that freedom. There is always something more to do, some ordinance, some "thing" that is required of them. And, they seem to be constantly fighting their guilt. That is not what God wants us to experience. This is just my experience, of course, but that's my perspective.without correct theological understandings, that person cannot have the True Freedom of Christ.
You don't see differentiation here? You don't see implied "levels" here?
Of course. But repentance involves an intellectual recognition. Human beings are funny lot. We feel guilt as an emotional response to a lot. I think if takes an intellectual recognition that we are forgiven, rather than an emotional one.Does someone who lacks theological understanding, but manages to get saved in spite of that ignorance, qualify for the indwelling of the Spirit? And isn't it that Spirit that gives peace and 'true freedom' of Christ?
jon wrote:
But Mormonism teaches that you can only achieve the very lowest grade of Salvation through the atonement of Christ. To reach higher levels you need handshakes, passwords, and a temple marriage - Christ's sacrifice is not enough if you want to live with your Heavenly Father.
D&C 76:50-70
50And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—
51They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—
52That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
55They are they into whose hands the Father has given aall things—
56They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;
57And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.
58Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
59Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
60And they shall overcome all things.
61Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
62These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
63These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.
64These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
65These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the ajust.
66These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.
67These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.
68These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.
69These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect d atonement through the shedding of his own blood.
70These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.