Former Stake President managing MormonThink

[Guest]

Maybe someone who Tobin does not yet have on ignore would like to point out to him that even if, hypothetically, he was right, so what? The lack of any Nephite or Jaredite remains/artifacts in New York is a moot point when there are no Nephite or Jaredite remains anywhere else, either.

[_tapirrider]

I read quite fine. You should try reading the material you link sometime. It might help.

How is it that you missed specific page numbers to only Cowdery's letters? Nevermind, you are in silly game mode right now. You are impossible.

Because others speculated and Joseph Smith didn't correct them could have been for any number of reasons, the most likely being that he simply didn't know where the hill Cumorah was.

And if he did not know, he should have never allowed it to be printed by people he offered to help so it would be accurate. Intellectual dishonesty is a character flaw. "brother J. SMITH jr. has offered to assist us" but he did not?

Tobin, the entire idea of an ancient ancestor to American Indians coming to Joseph Smith and talking with him, showing him where a record was buried and then appearing to three witnesses with the record is pure fantasy to me. All of it is made up, so asking where it is written that Moroni said, or that Joseph said is trivial to me. The fact that Joe let his close associates publish for the entire church something that you say he didn't know speaks much louder and more clearly than anything else.

[_Tobin]

And if he did not know, he should have never allowed it to be printed by people he offered to help so it would be accurate. Intellectual dishonesty is a character flaw. "brother J. SMITH jr. has offered to assist us" but he did not?

Tobin, the entire idea of an ancient ancestor to American Indians coming to Joseph Smith and talking with him, showing him where a record was buried and then appearing to three witnesses with the record is pure fantasy to me. All of it is made up, so asking where it is written that Moroni said, or that Joseph said is trivial to me. The fact that Joe let his close associates publish for the entire church something that you say he didn't know speaks much louder and more clearly than anything else.

Big deal and so what? That is just your characterization and I disagree. Also, you are welcome to believe anything you want. That doesn't mean what you believe is true however. I've simply pointed out to what is likely given what Joseph Smith said. I'm not here to make you believe in him as a prophet nor can I force you to believe that there really is a God or to get you to speak with God and discover the truth for yourself. That is entirely up to you.

[_Equality]

Brigham Young said:

Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translate all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: "This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ." I tell you this as coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it just as well as we understand coming to this meeting. . . . [Don] Carlos Smith was a young man of as much veracity as any young man we had, and he was a witness to these things. Samuel Smith saw some things, Hyrum saw a good many things, but Joseph was the leader.

http://tinyurl.com/bq2qcuz
I guess in Tobin's universe, in addition to making Lucy Mack Smith an unreliable witness (someone should tell Bushman--his book would be a pamphlet without Lucy Mack Smith's Biographical Sketches), Oliver Cowdery and Brigham Young are also unreliable witnesses on the Cumorah issue. Not to mention multiple prophets and apostles since. It is always so amusing when the apologists have to throw the apostles under the bus in an effort to save the prophets from themselves. Tobin wants us to believe that it is more likely that Cowdery, Lucy Mack Smith, and Brigham Young are all lying or mistaken about what Joseph Smith said about Cumorah and that Smith allowed them all to go about publicly mischaracterizing his beliefs on the subject without correction than that Smith actually told people the Hill Cumorah was in Palmyra. If these close confidantes of Joseph Smith would lie about what Smith believed on the Hill Cumorah, what else would they lie about concerning Smith's beliefs and experiences?

[_Tobin]

Brigham Young said:

Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translate all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: "This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ." I tell you this as coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it just as well as we understand coming to this meeting. . . . [Don] Carlos Smith was a young man of as much veracity as any young man we had, and he was a witness to these things. Samuel Smith saw some things, Hyrum saw a good many things, but Joseph was the leader.

http://tinyurl.com/bq2qcuz
I guess in Tobin's universe, in addition to making Lucy Mack Smith an unreliable witness (someone should tell Bushman--his book would be a pamphlet without Lucy Mack Smith's Biographical Sketches), Oliver Cowdery and Brigham Young are also unreliable witnesses on the Cumorah issue. Not to mention multiple prophets and apostles since. It is always so amusing when the apologists have to throw the apostles under the bus in an effort to save the prophets from themselves. Tobin wants us to believe that it is more likely that Cowdery, Lucy Mack Smith, and Brigham Young are all lying or mistaken about what Joseph Smith said about Cumorah and that Smith allowed them all to go about publicly mischaracterizing his beliefs on the subject without correction than that Smith actually told people the Hill Cumorah was in Palmyra. If these close confidantes of Joseph Smith would lie about what Smith believed on the Hill Cumorah, what else would they lie about concerning Smith's beliefs and experiences?

Urban legends are nice, but I find that account just as unlikely as Lucy's account. If something like that had happened, it is simply remarkable that Joseph Smith himself did not refer to it and repeat the story often.

[Guest]

When I read many times "Cowdrey" written by somebody pretended to be LDS expert - apologist or anti, all the same - (or "athiest" by a religious one, by the way) I always skip the remainder.

There are people whose opinion don't count...

[_tapirrider]

Big deal and so what?

Joe's failure to make sure Cowdery's published writing about Cumorah was accurate is no big deal? Right... it was only published to the entire church. Still causes problems right now between LGT believers and Heartlanders. All because Joe didn't know and it was no big deal in Tobin's universe.

nor can I force you to believe that there really is a God

So because I don't believe in your fantasy I am automatically an atheist? I simply don't believe in your God. That is all I said. by the way, did you figure out those page numbers yet?

[_Tobin]

So because I don't believe in your fantasy I am automatically an atheist? I simply don't believe in your God. That is all I said. by the way, did you figure out those page numbers yet?

Uh huh. I'll take a real God that can appear and speak with us to anything you can offer any day. And I could care less about your page numbers.

[_tapirrider]

Uh huh. I'll take a real God that can appear and speak with us to anything you can offer any day. And I could care less about your page numbers.

I'm not offering you anything regarding God. I simply want nothing to do with yours or your dishonest prophets. You were dishonest in your games about those page numbers and you could care less. I see that you follow your prophets well.

[_Darth J]

Urban legends are nice, but I find that account just as unlikely as Lucy's account. If something like that had happened, it is simply remarkable that Joseph Smith himself did not refer to it and repeat the story often.

That's not an urban legend. That is Brigham Young relating an experience that he claims to have actually experienced.

I wonder if Tobin imagines that Joseph Smith was the only person involved in founding Mormonism, much like Tobin is the only person involved in founding Tobinism.

You know, if Star Trek advanced alien Tobin god will just answer everything, why do we even need Joseph Smith?