Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

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_EAllusion
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _EAllusion »

Kevin Graham wrote:Yeah, in the same way the United States is Socialist.


No, not in the same way the United States is socialist.

The article correctly describes Socialism, and the Soviet Union was Communist. You know this.


I think the article was written with the level of knowledge of a high school sophomore who just learned about socialism, but didn't pay attention that much. The definition of socialism it uses describes socialism in the broad sense that encompasses Marxism, but holds societies to such a stringent criteria that not even the Soviet Union would count. There are literally no socialist countries on this definition. We talk about the existence of socialist countries because is not how we ordinarily understand the term.

So, no, I don't "know this." And since I have no problem recalling you praising some examples of socialism out in the wild, I don't think you know it either.

There are traditional distinctions between communism and socialism as the main branches of Marxist thought, but the definition this person opts to use subsumes communism under socialism.

The only people playing with terms are the people calling Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez a Socialist and calling Venezuela Socialist.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez calls herself socialist.

False equivalence. And I've never heard anyone say true communism never existed.


Communists defending communism against all the examples of failed, brutal communist states by saying they didn't try true communism was once so common that is both a cliché' and a joke. Might I recommend the google machine? Start with a phrase like, "true communism has never been tried" or there abouts.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _Kevin Graham »

EAllusion wrote:
Markk wrote:What does that even mean? It sounds like a form of socialism to me?


He's saying that any mixed economy, no matter how far on the socialism scale, is technically capitalist and not really socialist. Venezuela is a quasi-dictatorship in its political organization.


Not saying it is technically capitalist, just that its technically not socialist. The premise of Socialism is the "means of production, distribution, and exchange of all goods and services should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole." It doesn't mean a dictator controls everything while allowing for some social programs like government funded healthcare.
_subgenius
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _subgenius »

because she all about the workers...

The campaign for new Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who has made helping the working class and poor her top priority, was fined by the state for not carrying workers’ compensation coverage for a month last year.
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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _Kevin Graham »

EAllusion wrote:No, not in the same way the United States is socialist.

Then feel free to explain how Venezuela is more Socialist than the USA.

I think the article was written with the level of knowledge of a high school sophomore who just learned about socialism, but didn't pay attention that much. The definition of socialism it uses describes socialism in the broad sense that encompasses Marxism, but holds societies to such a stringent criteria that not even the Soviet Union would count. There are literally no socialist countries on this definition.


Well no crap, we already covered this. No Socialist countries do exist, including Venezuela.

EAllusion wrote:We talk about the existence of socialist countries because is not how we ordinarily understand the term.


So while you're mocking the correct term as a sophomoric understanding, you're going with what you consider to be a common understanding based on... personal anecdote? Nevermind if it is wrong. Its common. And the textbook definition of Socialism is for stupid high school kids. Never mind that Noam Chomsky argued the exact same thing, literally laughing out loud when asked about Venezuela the "Socialist" nation. I seem to recall him getting past the 10th grade.

EAllusion wrote:And since I have no problem recalling you praising some examples of socialism out in the wild, I don't think you know it either.


You shouldn't have any problem pulling up the numerous examples of me saying no Socialist country has ever existed. What you're alluding to are Democratic Socialist countries and I've made that qualification more than once.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez calls herself socialist.


She is a self-described Democratic Socialist. She isn't a member of the Socialist party of American, she's a member of the Democratic Socialists of America.

Communists defending communism against all the examples of failed, brutal communist states by saying they didn't try true communism was once so common that is both a cliché' and a joke. Might I recommend the google machine? Start with a phrase like, "true communism has never been tried" or there abouts.


Uh, so now you're talking strictly about communists defending communism, you're not talking about something that is the general opinion among experts who aren't communists. That's very different from what I said, as there are non-Socialists in academia who will say no Socialist country has ever existed, not in the context of apologetics.
_EAllusion
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _EAllusion »

Democratic socialism is a type of socialism Kevin. It literally means socialism achieved through democratic means as a contrast to revolutionary socialism. Venezuela started out with democratic socialist leadership that collapsed into a semi-totalitarian socialist state because that's a serious risk of socialism. Democratic socialism tends to refer to socialist policies adopted by socialist countries that did not undergo socialist revolution, such as Sweden. You're now confusing arguments so much that you are borrowing mutually contradictory stances. The people who argue that "no true socialism" exists think that countries that adopt democratic socialism (usually called social democracy in Europe) aren't really socialist and are so misnamed. Either democratic socialist countries exist or they don't.

Your views on Chomsky are incorrect insofar as you think he thinks of socialism narrowly in terms of that essay. Like, it's really wrong to the point that I'm not sure where you got that. He's a guy famous for praising the socialist policies of Asia before that didn't work out so well. He also happens to be one of the most famous examples of Utopian no-true-Scotsmaning socialism that I referred to that you preceded to scoff at, so it wouldn't be surprising if he laughed off examples of states with failed socialist policies as not really socialist.

Totalitarian societies with an autocratic head end up getting called socialist because when the public owns something, the public needs a means of organizing its power. Public ownership is government ownership. How the government is organized is a secondary question.
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _Kevin Graham »

I've looked up some "Most Socialist Countries" lists and the top ten usually exclude Venezuela. They're usually in this order:

China
Denmark
Finland
Netherlands
Canada
Sweden
Norway
Ireland
New Zealand
Belgium

Two thirds of the Venezuelan economy is privately owned. Private expenditure on healthcare in Venezuela accounts for 55.1% of all spending regarding healthcare while the OECD average is 27.5%. Roughly 70% of their GDP is generated by the private sector and as a result 80% of the workforce is employed by the private sector. For perspective, two thirds of Western Europe has more state employment than Venezuela does.

But Venezuela suddenly becomes the poster child for "Socialism"?
_Chap
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _Chap »

Like I said ...

Chap wrote:'Socialist' is one of those frequently used terms whose current content is so diverse that it is better not to be drawn into dispute about what it 'really' means.


[...]

Then one might end up with more light than heat ...


So what specific measures currently put in practice by the government of Venezuela has Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez advocated should be put into practice in the US?
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _Kevin Graham »

EAllusion wrote:Democratic socialism is a type of socialism Kevin. It literally means socialism achieved through democratic means as a contrast to revolutionary socialism. Venezuela started out with democratic socialist leadership that collapsed into a semi-totalitarian state because that's a serious risk of socialism. Democratic socialism tends to refer to socialist policies adopted by socialist countries that did not undergo socialist revolution, such as Sweden. You're now confusing arguments so much that you are borrowing mutually contradictory stances. The people who argue that "no true socialism" exists think that countries that adopt democratic socialism (usually called social democracy in Europe) aren't really socialist and are so misnamed. Either democratic socialist countries exist or they don't.

Your views on Chomsky are incorrect insofar as you think he thinks of socialism narrowly in terms of that essay. Like, it's really wrong to the point that I'm not sure where you got that. He's a guy famous for praising the socialist policies of Asia before that didn't work out so well. He also happens to be one of the most famous examples of Utopian no-true-Scotsmaning socialism that I referred to that you preceded to scoff, so it wouldn't be surprising if he laughed off examples of states with failed socialist policies as not really socialist.

Totalitarian societies with an autocratic head end up getting called socialist because when the public owns something, the public needs a means of organizing its power. Public ownership is government ownership. How the government is organized is a secondary question.


I watched a video of him discussing Venezuela, I'll try to find it. No one is denying there is a large umbrella of "Socialism" but let's cut to the chase here. How is Venezuela "Socialist" and the United States isn't? I'm really curious where you draw the line. How much socialism does a country need to have before it can be properly described as "Socialist"?

My point has always been that we're very much a socialist country too (we socialize healthcare, transportation, education, military, banking, etc). Most countries are too, but no pure socialism has ever existed because nowhere in the world does the working class completely control the economy.

And you know damned well that when people attack Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez for being a "Socialist" they're not talking about Democratic Socialism that exists throughout Europe. They're not using the word the way she does in that context. They're talking about the fear-mongering nonsense of "she's coming to take your private property and give it to the poor."
_Markk
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _Markk »

Kevin Graham wrote:
Not saying it is technically capitalist, just that its technically not socialist. The premise of Socialism is the "means of production, distribution, and exchange of all goods and services should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole." It doesn't mean a dictator controls everything while allowing for some social programs like government funded healthcare.



Who controls the oil in Venezuela?...if I am not mistaken, their Exxon and Mobil is a goverment owed and controlled entity (PDVSA), funding multi billions into goverment programs. If wiki is correct the President of the goverment owned oil company is a major general in the national guard.

Do a google on land ownership...not very capitalist from what I read... but of a socialist/dictatorship model. I have also read that there are "hunger issues due to farm nationalizations, currency distortions and a government takeover of food distribution." If that is true, then again I am not sure how we can so this is not a socialist country. Maybe not "Pure Socialist", but still very much socialist.

It is apples and oranges to compare the US with Venezuela in these regards. The USA has been and is the champion and model for Capitalism, while Venezuela has a clear form of socialism at the moment.

Has there ever been a sizable socialist country without a dictator or ruling party (the elite) ?

Kevin, your definition of socialism sounds more like a hippie commune. How does a community has a whole govern it's self without a dictator or ruling dictatorship? I guess my point is your definition of socialism is impossible.

Thanks

EA wrote...I think the article was written with the level of knowledge of a high school sophomore who just learned about socialism, but didn't pay attention that much.


He is a 23 year old that likes to write about politics (according to his bio)...or...basically another one of us that thinks he knows everything and has it all figured out.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Markk, your ignorance can be summarized in your insistence that there is such a thing as a "Socialist/Dictatorship" model, when in reality this is just something you made up while conflating two things that have nothing to do with one another.

"My definition" as you call it is the definition that is universally accepted by those who know how to spell "government" (a word you just misspelled three times). Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and workers' self-management of the means of production. I'm going to highlight the common denominator in every definition for the term.

"Socialism is a social economic system under which the components of production are owned, administered and controlled by the people – the workers. In a socialist society, the strategic industries, services and natural resources are collectively owned by all the people. The democratic organization of the people within these industries and services is the Government. However, there are many interpretations, and in several countries socialism exists as part of a capitalist system." - What Is Socialism? Definition And Meaning

"Pure socialism is defined as a system wherein all of the means of production are owned and run by the government and/or cooperative, nonprofit groups." - Comparing Economic Systems: A Political-Economic Approach. Harcourt College Pub. p. 7.

"This alteration in the relationship between economy and politics is evident in the very definition of a socialist economic system. The basic characteristic of such a system is generally reckoned to be the predominance of the social ownership of the means of production." - The Economics and Politics of Socialism. Routledge. p. 87 Brus, Wlodzimierz (2015)

"Socialism, you see, is a bird with two wings. The definition is 'social ownership and democratic control of the instruments and means of production."

"The really essential element in most of the traditional definitions of socialism put forward during the last hundred years has been the public ownership of the material instruments of production. " - The Definition of Socialism: A Comment, Ronald L. Meet, The Economic Journal, Vol. 67, No. 265, p135

"A society may be defined as socialist if the major part of the means of production of goods and services is in some sense socially owned and operated, by state, socialised or cooperative enterprises. The practical issues of socialism comprise the relationships between management and workforce within the enterprise, the interrelationships between production units (plan versus markets), and, if the state owns and operates any part of the economy, who controls it and how." - New Palgrave Dictionary of Economics, Second Edition (2008).

"What else does a socialist economic system involve? Those who favor socialism generally speak of social ownership, social control, or socialization of the means of production as the distinctive positive feature of a socialist economic system" N. Scott Arnold. The Philosophy and Economics of Market Socialism : A Critical Study. Oxford University Press. 1998. p. 8

"Socialism may be defined as movements for social ownership and control of the economy. It is this idea that is the common element found in the many forms of socialism." - Busky, Donald F. (2000). Democratic Socialism: A Global Survey. Praeger. p. 2

"I never described Chavez's state capitalist government as 'socialist' or even hinted at such an absurdity. It was quite remote from socialism. Private capitalism remained ... Capitalists were free to undermine the economy in all sorts of ways, like massive export of capital." - Noam Chomsky

-------------------------------

But yeah, that's just "my" definition, right? Notice the common denominator in virtually all definitions. None of them require "dictatorships." They all require that the working class have control, which is not the case when you have dictators calling the shots.

If you really want to understand what happened in Venezuela you'd step outside this BS propaganda that tries to pin Socialism on every problem in the world:

Capitalism, culture, and context

First, it is important to realise that Chavez chose to call his transformative project "21st-century socialism", but Venezuela's economy remained market-based and private-sector dominated throughout his time in office.

Though the social economy and the public sector were heavily promoted - including through nationalisation - the private sector was expected to remain dominant, and it did. A centrally planned socialist economy like Cuba's was neither the aim nor the reality.

Second, part of the problem was always that oil-rich, hyper-consumerist Venezuela was the last place you would expect socialism to blossom - and these characteristics caused grave problems for the government.

The crucial role of oil in the international capitalist system makes oil-price volatility a central player in Venezuelan development, as Maduro has discovered to his cost.

But more importantly, the sheer value of oil provokes the "resource curse" in undiversified economies like Venezuela's. With boom-time windfalls favouring exchange-rate shifts that make other exports uncompetitive, "petromania" leads to lavish public spending, while distorted incentives undermine ethics, entrepreneurship, and efficiency throughout the state and wider society.

As Al Jazeera's insightful documentary The Battle for Venezuela explains, this is nothing new. On the contrary, Venezuela's formation as a state and as a society was intimately linked to the oil industry, and this is reflected in its politics.

Oil, opposition, and obstacles to development

Long before Chavez took office in 1999, there were two Venezuelas: "the Venezuela that benefits from oil, and the Venezuela that remains in the shadow of the oil industry" as veteran Venezuela analyst Miguel Tinker Salas puts it.

The benefiting elite, from which the core of Venezuela's opposition emerged, rightly recognised that Chavez's promise to redistribute the oil wealth to the marginalised majority was sincere. But they also instinctively understood that Chavez wanted to rewrite the national narrative without the rich, white, educated, Western-facing elite as its heroes, thereby also robbing them of the social status that reproduced and ring-fenced their material wealth.

It is this cultural threat that explains the ferocity and durability of elite rage and obstructionism: staging the 2002 coup even though Chavez's democratic legitimacy was undoubted and then organising a devastating, management-led oil strike at a time when his economic policy remained more reformist than radical.

By his own account, it was the implacability and intransigence of this elite, bequeathed to him by Venezuela's capitalist history, that drove Chavez towards the idea of a more radical 21st-century socialism in 2005.

Like the bolivar, the claim of an "economic war" is a ludicrously devalued currency under Maduro. However, nothing suggests that provoking political problems through hoarding, cutting production, or manipulating the black-market exchange rate was ever beyond the pale for private actors with the power to do it.

Companies and wealthy individuals have also always had the clearest means and the most capital to invest in the large-scale currency arbitrage that has been bleeding Venezuela dry for over a decade.

But the effects of oil dependency extend far beyond a particular group or class. As one of the architects of Venezuela's social-economy drive puts it, the pervasive culture has always favoured "living off government transfers of [oil] rents instead of deservedly enjoying the fruits of productive work."

In Venezuela, social divisions are so deep and societal trust is so weak that the idea of a social contract, a national pulling-together, or even a basic acceptance of the rules of the game is a distant dream. As the local saying goes, "for my friends, anything; for my enemies, the law".

Politics must play out against a cultural backdrop that implicitly understands that you should use any means necessary to siphon off as much oil wealth as possible for you and yours....

... Chavez's response to implacable opposition and widespread corruption was to turn to those he trusted in the military and to the promise of social transformation through socialisation of the economy. But his faith in neither was repaid.

But just as capitalism itself was not to blame for the pacted corruption and murderous repression of prior governments that created the popular discontent and personal drive which brought Chavez to power, socialism itself is not to blame for the creeping authoritarianism of a Maduro regime that is now preventing replacement of a failing government and model.

In many ways, the blame game is a red herring, an exercise in cherry-picking to promote greater state intervention or the "free" market rather than any identifiable model. The statist might cite happy Norway before the Gulag, whereas the free-marketeer will surely prefer New Zealand's peaceful neoliberalisation during the 1980s to the murder and torture of Chile's under Pinochet.

The lesson is perhaps that there are no clean, textbook models. The real issue is whether a given political economy is producing desirable results for its citizens. Where once that was the case in Venezuela, clearly it is no longer so.


Here's why you can't blame socialism for Venezuela's crisis - Yahoo Finance

Don’t blame socialism for Venezuela’s condition
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