LittleNipper wrote:Sex for any reason other than with one's wife and with a full acceptance that one may be procreating a child by the act (with God's blessing) is inherently evil. The very proof of this is divorce, abortion, and now the promotion of "gay" marriage. None is acceptable either logically or morally. They are a perversion of God's original intent.
Religions, especially the Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, rely upon and thrive on guilt. By promoting the myth that there is something inherently evil about the natural sexual desires that no healthy human being can possibly avoid having, religious charlatans create an inexhaustible reservoir of guilt by which they can manipulate their gullible followers to their own selfish advantage.
With Christ all things are washed away. All things become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. The guilt trip is gone. The Holy Spirit is constantly renewing and conforming to the image of Christ until the believer takes his last breath.
LittleNipper wrote:With Christ all things are washed away. All things become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. The guilt trip is gone. The Holy Spirit is constantly renewing and conforming to the image of Christ until the believer takes his last breath.
Then why does gay marriage bother you so much?
If they've accepted Jesus, their guilt will have been washed away. Problem solved.
LittleNipper wrote:With Christ all things are washed away. All things become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. The guilt trip is gone. The Holy Spirit is constantly renewing and conforming to the image of Christ until the believer takes his last breath.
Then why does gay marriage bother you so much?
If they've accepted Jesus, their guilt will have been washed away. Problem solved.
One must accept sin as being sin. Gay marriage says that same sex unions are EQUAL to God's created institution of marriage. To be saved one must be first willing to acknowledge that how one lives needs God's forgiveness. Gay rights is the antithesis of that. It says that what one does is fine and nothing to ask forgiveness for.
2 Samuel 16:1-23 David was just past the top of the hill when Ziba, the manager of Mephibosheth’s household, caught up with him. He had two donkeys loaded with 200 loaves of bread, 100 clusters of raisins, 100 bunches of grapes, and a small barrel of wine. David asked Ziba what this was for.
Ziba replied, “The donkeys are for your people to ride on, and the bread and summer fruit are for the young men to eat; the wine is to be taken with you into the wilderness for any who become weary.” David asked him where is Mephibosheth? Ziba replied that he stayed at Jerusalem. “He said, ‘Now I’ll get to be king! Today I will get back the kingdom of my father, Saul.
“In that case,” the King David told Ziba, “I give you everything he owns.” Ziba thanked him. As David and his party passed Bahurim, a man came out of the village cursing them. It was Shimei, the son of Gera, a member of Saul’s family. He threw stones at the king and the king’s officers and all the mighty warriors who surrounded them! "Get out of here, you murderer, you scoundrel!” he shouted at David. “The Lord is paying you back for murdering King Saul and his family; you stole his throne and now the Lord has given it to your son Absalom! At last you will taste some of your own medicine, you murderer!” “Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king?” Abishai demanded. “Let me go over and slice his head off!”
The king said. “No, If the Lord has told him to curse me, who am I to say no? My own son is trying to kill me, and this Benjaminite is merely cursing me. Leave him alone, for no doubt the Lord has told him to do it. Perhaps the Lord will see that I am being wronged and will bless me because of these curses.” David and his men continued on, with Shime following them on a nearby hillside, cursing as he went and throwing stones at David and tossing dust into the air. The king and all those who were with him were weary by the time they reached Bahurim, so they stayed there a while and rested.
Meanwhile, Absalom and his men arrived at Jerusalem, accompanied by Ahithophel. David’s friend, Hushai the Archite, arrived, he went to see Absalom right away. “Long live the king!” he exclaimed. “Long live the king!” “Is this the way to treat your friend David?” Absalom asked him. “Why aren’t you with him?”
“Because I work for the man who is chosen by the Lord and by Israel,” Hushai replied. “Anyway, why shouldn’t I? I helped your father and now I will help you!” Absalom asked Ahithophel what he should do next? Ahithophel told him, “Go and sleep with your father’s wives, for he has left them here to keep the house. Then all Israel will know that you have insulted him beyond the possibility of reconciliation, and they will all close ranks behind you.”
So a tent was erected on the roof of the palace where everybody could view it, and Absalom went into the tent to lie with his father’s wives. Absalom did whatever Ahithophel told him to, just as David had; for every word Ahithophel spoke was perceived as like wisdom from God.)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And David hath passed on a little from the top, and lo, Ziba, servant of Mephibosheth -- to meet him, and a couple of asses saddled, and upon them two hundred loaves, and a hundred bunches of raisins, and a hundred [of] summer-fruit, and a bottle of wine.
2 And the king saith unto Ziba, `What -- these to thee?' and Ziba saith, `The asses for the household of the king to ride on, and the bread and the summer-fruit for the young men to eat, and the wine for the wearied to drink in the wilderness.'
3 And the king saith, `And where [is] the son of thy lord?' and Ziba saith unto the king, `Lo, he is abiding in Jerusalem, for he said, To-day do the house of Israel give back to me the kingdom of my father.'
4 And the king saith to Ziba, `Lo, thine [are] all that Mephibosheth hath;' and Ziba saith, `I have bowed myself -- I find grace in thine eyes, my lord, O king.'
5 And king David hath come in unto Bahurim, and lo, thence a man is coming out, of the family of the house of Saul, and his name [is] Shimei, son of Gera, he cometh out, coming out and reviling;
6 and he stoneth David with stones, and all the servants of king David, and all the people, and all the mighty men on his right and on his left.
7 And thus said Shimei in his reviling, `Go out, go out, O man of blood, and man of worthlessness!
8 Jehovah hath turned back on thee all the blood of the house of Saul, in whose stead thou hast reigned, and Jehovah doth give the kingdom in to the hand of Absalom thy son; and lo, thou [art] in thine evil, for a man of blood thou [art].'
9 And Abishai son of Zeruiah saith unto the king, `Why doth this dead dog revile my lord the king? let me pass over, I pray thee, and I turn aside his head.'
10 And the king saith, `What -- to me and to you, O sons of Zeruiah? for -- let him revile; even because Jehovah hath said to him, Revile David; and who saith, Wherefore hast Thou done so?'
11 And David saith unto Abishai, and unto all his servants, `Lo, my son who came out of my bowels is seeking my life, and also surely now the Benjamite; leave him alone, and let him revile, for Jehovah hath said [so] to him;
12 it may be Jehovah doth look on mine affliction, and Jehovah hath turned back to me good for his reviling this day.'
13 And David goeth with his men in the way, and Shimei is going at the side of the hill over-against him, going on, and he revileth, and stoneth with stones over-against him, and hath dusted with dust.
14 And the king cometh in, and all the people who [are] with him, wearied, and they are refreshed there.
15 And Absalom and all the people, the men of Israel, have come in to Jerusalem, and Ahithophel with him,
16 and it cometh to pass, when Hushai the Archite, David's friend, hath come unto Absalom, that Hushai saith unto Absalom, `Let the king live! let the king live!'
17 And Absalom saith unto Hushai, `This thy kindness with thy friend! why hast thou not gone with thy friend?'
18 And Hushai saith unto Absalom, `Nay, for he whom Jehovah hath chosen, and this people, even all the men of Israel, his I am, and with him I abide;
19 and secondly, for whom do I labour? is it not before his son? as I served before thy father so am I before thee.'
20 And Absalom saith unto Ahithophel, `Give for you counsel what we do.'
21 And Ahithophel saith unto Absalom, `Go in unto the concubines of thy father, whom he left to keep the house, and all Israel hath heard that thou hast been abhorred by thy father, and the hands of all who [are] with thee have been strong.'
22 And they spread out for Absalom the tent on the roof, and Absalom goeth in unto the concubines of his father before the eyes of all Israel.
23 And the counsel of Ahithophel which he counselled in those days [is] as [when] one inquireth at the word of God; so [is] all the counsel of Ahithophel both to David and to Absalom.
Last edited by Guest on Mon May 05, 2014 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
LittleNipper wrote:One must accept sin as being sin.
Are you going to tell me you stopped sinning after you accepted Christ and haven't committed any sins since then?
LittleNipper wrote:Gay marriage says that same sex unions are EQUAL to God's created institution of marriage.
No, Nipper, that's not what "Gay marriage says".
LittleNipper wrote:To be saved one must be first willing to acknowledge that how one lives needs God's forgiveness.
Again, are you going to tell me you stopped sinning after you accepted Christ and haven't committed any sins after that?
LittleNipper wrote:Gay rights is the antithesis of that. It says that what one does is fine and nothing to ask forgiveness for.
And again, are you going to tell me you stopped sinning after you accepted Christ and haven't committed any sins after that?
Christians still sin. But their heart is not in it. The saved seek to be of good report for unbelievers and do what the Heavenly Father would want them to do out of love and respect for all Christ has done for them. They are forgiven, and seen by God as perfect through Christ Jesus. A saved individual who smokes may likely die from cancer; however, his soul is saved. But that smoker will likely try and try again and again to quit. Not to save himself, but to be a pleasure to God and be a good witness to the unsaved. Being "good" saves no one, but the saved individual becomes driven to be more and more like Christ. He is a new creature under construction. One cannot stop sinning to be saved. One is saved and then becomes motivated to change.
LittleNipper wrote:Christians still sin. But their heart is not in it.
This only applies if one believes in the Christian concept of sin, otherwise it's irrelevant. It's therefore a very poor reason to prevent same-sex couples from being able to solemnize their relationships via civil unions.
LittleNipper wrote:The saved seek to be of good report for unbelievers and do what the Heavenly Father would want them to do out of love and respect for all Christ has done for them. They are forgiven, and seen by God as perfect through Christ Jesus.
Okay, so if a same-sex couple accepts Christ their sins are wiped away. Problem solved. In any case, you should probably concentrate on your own sins instead of worrying about everybody else's.
LittleNipper wrote:A saved individual who smokes may likely die from cancer; however, his soul is saved. But that smoker will likely try and try again and again to quit. Not to save himself, but to be a pleasure to God and be a good witness to the unsaved. Being "good" saves no one, but the saved individual becomes driven to be more and more like Christ.
It sounds like you're suggesting same-sex civil unions should be permitted for the same reason why smoking is permitted. While I agree with you that they should be permitted, I reject your line of reasoning.
LittleNipper wrote:He is a new creature under construction. One cannot stop sinning to be saved. One is saved and then becomes motivated to change.
Again, this only applies if one believes in the Christian concept of sin, otherwise it's irrelevant. It's therefore a poor reason to ban same-sex civil unions.
Last edited by Guest on Tue May 06, 2014 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Surprise, surprise, there is no divine mandate for the Church to discuss and portray its history accurately. --Yahoo Bot
I pray thee, sir, forgive me for the mess. And whether I shot first, I'll not confess. --Han Solo, from William Shakespeare's Star Wars
Little Nipper, if a same sex couple is happy and productive while in a committed, monogamous relationship, whom are they hurting? How does that in any way harm, endanger or even inconvenience anyone else? How can it be reasonable to insist that they are committing sin when no one else is being hurt by their relationship?
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
I would like to step up and say a couple of words in praise of the human experience of guilt. People are so often caught up in there own concerns that they miss when they a stepping all over their neighbors toes. But we do have a sort of internal guilt warning system which can be activated by a clue from the neighbor. With a little beep beep from our guilt detector we step back and try to be more thoughtful about those around us. In a way loosing one sense of guilt would be a little like loosing sensitivity to pain in our extremities. Without pain injuries can continue without needed restorative actions being sought in a timely manner.Limbs may be lost as in advanced diabetes.
I was thinking of the observation that with Bible related religions guilt plays a large role. If I consider the Bible I cannot miss that the subject does pervade the book from beginning to end. The Bible does have other themes but it does not seem to get very far away from that subject before returning to guilt. I am able to wonder whether it is too much of the one matter. I remain thinking that the bitter flavor of that subject is central to what I find valuable in the Book. It is encouragment to keep our guilt alarm healthy.
As much as I truly believe that guilt is a precious organ of alarm, quick to give guidance to clumsy humans I know it is not so simple. Any of us can think of examples when guilt tangles up the mind creating fear and loss of self respect.As Gunner has pointed out their always seem to be people quick to use this sort of guilt for manipulation to gain power and money.
I am not sure which is more alarming though, this overdone destructive guilt or the other extreme. I can be amazed at the situations where an onlooker would expect a person with ugly acts to have a guilt alarm going off like an air raid siren yet they sit calmly as though enjoying dessert. (Stones Brown Sugar would tell such a story)
LittleNipper wrote:Christians still sin. But their heart is not in it.
This only applies if one believes in the Christian concept of sin, otherwise it's irrelevant.
I am wondering what you may be thinking of in the phrase Christian concept of sin. I am genuinely uncertain. The back of my mind is telling me that there are a few different theories in Christian circles. I suppose because all Christians see God as involved in the subject there maybe a Christian coloring to the subject. My understanding is that God is deeply offended when we harm our neighbors. Basically the same things are sin or evil in a Christian context as in other contexts.
Yet there is no missing that people have different takes on what is sin. Different Christians may have conflicting views. I am picturing in my mind Oberlin college lead by Charles Finney an important 19th century revival leader. Oberlin participated in the underground railroad. I respect those efforts and the Christian understanding of sin which motivated those efforts. The irony remains that at the same time in the south there were plenty of Christians who thought the railroad an evil project of stealing property. I am not going to try to imagine Finney's thinking as an impeccable image of Christian understanding of sin. There were points of clarity with him but I have a hard time sympathizing with Finney's rejection of using mustard in meals as a worldly excess. Should I imagine adolescent mustard eaters being grilled behind closed doors on their purity?