Excellent takedown of Mopologist DNA misinformation

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MG 2.0
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Re: Excellent takedown of Mopologist DNA misinformation

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I Have Questions wrote:
Mon Aug 25, 2025 6:57 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Aug 25, 2025 5:22 pm
He has recognized the implications of the science of DNA studies. So has the church. There are examples in the Book of Mormon of lineage groups merging. Mulekites and Nephites under King Mosiah for example. If you hold to the hemispheric model for the Book of Mormon you will, of course, look at Kevin Barney and other LDS folks that have been able to look at things with a more nuanced view as "clowns".

Regards,
MG
Quote something from him that demonstrates he has recognised the implications of the science of DNA studies, but which doesn’t undermine the claims made about the Book of Mormon internally, and by the Church.
I think that you would have to show what claims and/or doctrines are made within the Book of Mormon that support your claims. The church and many of the members that take the time to explore this topic in depth are OK with it. It is the critics that are set in their ways that are not.

Regards,
MG
Last edited by MG 2.0 on Mon Aug 25, 2025 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MG 2.0
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Re: Excellent takedown of Mopologist DNA misinformation

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huckelberry wrote:
Mon Aug 25, 2025 7:37 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Aug 25, 2025 6:45 pm
But which one? They can't all be true, can they?

Regards,
MG
Only God is completely true. How can a church be true?
What do you mean by "only God is completely true"? Can you define God? Can you define our relationship to Him? Do you know what, if anything, God expects us to do or would like us to do? Etc.

drumdude's response was sort of shallow and somewhat meaningless, in my opinion.

Regards,
MG
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sock puppet
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Re: Excellent takedown of Mopologist DNA misinformation

Post by sock puppet »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Aug 25, 2025 7:44 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Mon Aug 25, 2025 7:37 pm
Only God is completely true. How can a church be true?
What do you mean by "only God is completely true"? Can you define God? Can you define our relationship to Him? Do you know what, if anything, God expects us to do or would like us to do? Etc.

drumdude's response was sort of shallow and somewhat meaningless, in my opinion.

Regards,
MG
You've so completely and thoroughly prostituted your opinion for the LDS Church and its indefensibles that your opinion has been rendered utterly meaningless.
"There will come a time when the rich own all the media, and it will be impossible for the public to make an informed opinion." Albert Einstein, ~1949 "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." Voltaire
MG 2.0
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Re: Excellent takedown of Mopologist DNA misinformation

Post by MG 2.0 »

sock puppet wrote:
Mon Aug 25, 2025 7:49 pm
You've so completely and thoroughly prostituted your opinion for the LDS Church and its indefensibles that your opinion has been rendered utterly meaningless.
Word salad. Meaningless.

Regards,
MG
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Rivendale
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Re: Excellent takedown of Mopologist DNA misinformation

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MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Aug 22, 2025 9:08 pm
I Have Questions wrote:
Fri Aug 22, 2025 8:15 pm
Post a quote from one of the geneticists you mentioned that rebuts what Southerton says in the OP. Once you’ve done that, which was the first thing that was asked, then, and only then, should you expect people to take the time to respond to your questions. Stop being so damn lazy, post the quote or admit you haven’t got one.
The main go to guy, as you know, is Dr. Ugo Perego. In this church approved essay he makes his case:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng
Genetic Drift
Genetic drift is the gradual loss of genetic markers in small populations due to random events. A simple illustration is often used to teach this concept:

Fill a jar with 20 marbles—10 red, 10 blue. The jar represents a population, and the marbles represent people with different genetic profiles. Draw a marble at random from this population, record its color, and place it back in the jar. Each draw represents the birth of a child. Draw 20 times to simulate a new generation within the population. The second generation could have an equal number of each color, but more likely it will have an uneven number of the two colors.

Before you draw a third generation, adjust the proportion of each color in the jar to reflect the new mix of genetic profiles in the gene pool. As you continue drawing, the now-uneven mix will lead to ever more frequent draws of the dominant color. Over several generations, this “drift” toward one color will almost certainly result in the disappearance of the other color.

This exercise illustrates the inheritance pattern of genetic material over the course of several generations and shows how drift can result in the loss of genetic profiles. The effect of drift is especially pronounced in small, isolated populations or in cases where a small group carrying a distinct genetic profile intermingles with a much larger population of a different lineage.

A study in Iceland combining both genetic and genealogical data demonstrates that the majority of people living in that country today inherited mitochondrial DNA from just a small percentage of the people who lived there only 300 years ago. The mitochondrial DNA of the majority of Icelanders living at that time simply did not survive the random effects of drift. It is conceivable that much of the DNA of Book of Mormon peoples did not survive for the same reason.

Genetic drift particularly affects mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome DNA, but it also leads to the loss of variation in autosomal DNA. When a small population mixes with a large one, combinations of autosomal markers typical of the smaller group become rapidly overwhelmed or swamped by those of the larger. The smaller group’s markers soon become rare in the combined population and may go extinct due to the effects of genetic drift and bottlenecks as described above. Moreover, the shuffling and recombination of autosomal DNA from generation to generation produces new combinations of markers in which the predominant genetic signal comes from the larger original population. This can make the combinations of markers characteristic of the smaller group so diluted that they cannot be reliably identified.

The authors of a 2008 paper in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology summarized the impact of these forces succinctly: “Genetic drift has been a significant force [on Native American genetics], and together with a major population crash after European contact, has altered haplogroup frequencies and caused the loss of many haplotypes.” Genetic profiles may be entirely lost, and combinations that once existed may become so diluted that they are difficult to detect. Thus, portions of a population may in fact be related genealogically to an individual or group but not have DNA that can be identified as belonging to those ancestors. In other words, Native Americans whose ancestors include Book of Mormon peoples may not be able to confirm that relationship using their DNA.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng
Question: Does Simon Southerton neglect or dismisses the population genetic factors that cause genetic markers to vanish or become undetectable over centuries? If not, would you explain in detail or link to a specific segment/part of any presentation that he has given that details his overwhelming evidence against genetic drift?

Dr. Perego is molecular biologist and population geneticist whose expertise lies in human genetics, population migrations, and genetic genealogy. Is this where Simon Southerton's expertise also
Regards,
MG
Southerton has addressed this.
Given the scale of the Lehite civilisations described in the Book of Mormon, it would be virtually impossible for their autosomal DNA to be diluted away to undetectable levels. It would hang around like Neanderthal DNA. At the very least, if Book of Mormon people mixed with Native Americans, we should see traces of semitic DNA cropping up everywhere in the region they colonized. What is most ironic, given the spread of semitic populations throughout Europe, is that Caucasian Mormons are far more likely to carry traces of semitic DNA than Native Americans. The history described in the Book of Mormon could not be further from the truth.

DNA research continues to expose the 19th century origin of the Book of Mormon. We know what the DNA of Book of Mormon peoples would look like. Lehi was an Israelite and his DNA would have been semitic. Scientists can easily detect very small traces of semitic DNA in New World people and populations and they can determine when it arrived in the Americas. Scientists have found no evidence of Israelite DNA entering any Native American population during the Book of Mormon period.
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sock puppet
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Re: Excellent takedown of Mopologist DNA misinformation

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MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Aug 25, 2025 7:53 pm
sock puppet wrote:
Mon Aug 25, 2025 7:49 pm
You've so completely and thoroughly prostituted your opinion for the LDS Church and its indefensibles that your opinion has been rendered utterly meaningless.
Word salad. Meaningless.

Regards,
MG
Yes, MG 2.0, your "opinion" and posts are meaningless.
"There will come a time when the rich own all the media, and it will be impossible for the public to make an informed opinion." Albert Einstein, ~1949 "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." Voltaire
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Re: Excellent takedown of Mopologist DNA misinformation

Post by I Have Questions »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Aug 25, 2025 7:42 pm
I Have Questions wrote:
Mon Aug 25, 2025 6:57 pm
Quote something from him that demonstrates he has recognised the implications of the science of DNA studies, but which doesn’t undermine the claims made about the Book of Mormon internally, and by the Church.
I think that you would have to show what claims and/or doctrines are made within the Book of Mormon that support your claims. The church and many of the members that take the time to explore this topic in depth are OK with it. It is the critics that are set in their ways that are not.

Regards,
MG
Quote something (that’s not AI generated remember) from him that demonstrates he has recognised the implications of the science of DNA studies, but which doesn’t undermine the claims made about the Book of Mormon internally, and by the Church. If you can find any, or are you too damn lazy?
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: Excellent takedown of Mopologist DNA misinformation

Post by MG 2.0 »

Rivendale wrote:
Mon Aug 25, 2025 8:00 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Aug 22, 2025 9:08 pm
The main go to guy, as you know, is Dr. Ugo Perego. In this church approved essay he makes his case:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

Question: Does Simon Southerton neglect or dismisses the population genetic factors that cause genetic markers to vanish or become undetectable over centuries? If not, would you explain in detail or link to a specific segment/part of any presentation that he has given that details his overwhelming evidence against genetic drift?

Dr. Perego is molecular biologist and population geneticist whose expertise lies in human genetics, population migrations, and genetic genealogy. Is this where Simon Southerton's expertise also
Regards,
MG
Southerton has addressed this.
Given the scale of the Lehite civilisations described in the Book of Mormon, it would be virtually impossible for their autosomal DNA to be diluted away to undetectable levels. It would hang around like Neanderthal DNA. At the very least, if Book of Mormon people mixed with Native Americans, we should see traces of semitic DNA cropping up everywhere in the region they colonized. What is most ironic, given the spread of semitic populations throughout Europe, is that Caucasian Mormons are far more likely to carry traces of semitic DNA than Native Americans. The history described in the Book of Mormon could not be further from the truth.

DNA research continues to expose the 19th century origin of the Book of Mormon. We know what the DNA of Book of Mormon peoples would look like. Lehi was an Israelite and his DNA would have been semitic. Scientists can easily detect very small traces of semitic DNA in New World people and populations and they can determine when it arrived in the Americas. Scientists have found no evidence of Israelite DNA entering any Native American population during the Book of Mormon period.
  • Why do you accept Southerton's scale(s) of Lehite civilization?
  • Why would you expect Lehite DNA to "hang around like Neanderthal DNA"?
  • If ancient Israelite DNA is genetically close to neighboring populations: Canaanites, Phoenicians, Arameans, etc., what do you mean by "Semitic"?
  • Does Southerton's hemispheric theory account for genetic drift, population bottlenecks, and replacement events?
Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Excellent takedown of Mopologist DNA misinformation

Post by MG 2.0 »

sock puppet wrote:
Mon Aug 25, 2025 8:04 pm
Yes, MG 2.0, your "opinion" and posts are meaningless.
Just like the one previous to this one, right?

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Excellent takedown of Mopologist DNA misinformation

Post by MG 2.0 »

I Have Questions wrote:
Mon Aug 25, 2025 8:11 pm
...you too damn lazy?
I have become weary of this.

Regards,
MG
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