"Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

[_Ray A]

Everybody to whom we gave the DVD in Australia and New Zealand expressed pleasure at receiving it, and I have absolutely no reason to believe that the pleasure was feigned.

This is an excerpt from an email I sent a "Mormon friend" in October 2006, about a month after your visit:

I think you know I'm not orthodox, though I still believe that the Book of Mormon is inspired, and I still very much feel God in my life.... I really can't see myself ever returning to the church, and I told Dan and [name deleted] this when they were here. In spite of this I still feel a strong spiritual connection to Mormons like yourself and many others, and I do appreciate that very much. I still don't know if I will come back on FAIR, because I feel I want to discuss issues and problems more openly....and I honestly don't want to bring any negativity on FAIR, and even doing questioning posts will do that... You know that Dan is very much an either/or man like Bill Hamblin, and I am not. But I won't let any differences between us taint my respect for him.

History doesn't lie.

[_Daniel Peterson]

History doesn't lie.

But what does it say?

I see nothing at all in the passage you cite that refutes me.

That I believe Joseph was either a prophet or not, that the Book of Mormon is either true or not, doesn't entail in any way, shape, or form that I thought it likely that you would come back to the Church through my visit or that my stated reason for bringing my wife down with me to visit you in Wollongong is a lie. That you had rejected Book of Mormon historicity -- as I knew full well you had -- doesn't mean, whatever you may say now, that you disdained the gift of the DVD then and only accepted it out of a sense that you had a duty to be polite.

[_Ray A]

That you had rejected Book of Mormon historicity -- as I knew full well you had -- doesn't mean, whatever you may say now, that you disdained the gift of the DVD then and only accepted it out of a sense that you had a duty to be polite.

I never said I "disdained" the gift. I didn't watch the DVD for another month or two after you left, more like two months. You know what Muslim culture is like? Here in Oz Muslims take great offence if you don't accept a gift they give you. Is something wrong with accepting a gift even if it's not top of your pops?

If you want to read my mind, Dan, and tell me what I felt at the time, by all means continue. You seem to think I'm lying about how I felt at the time. Why would I be interested in a DVD that attempted to offer evidences for historicity, which I had long rejected? As I previously said, when I watched the DVD I was interested to see faces to names I had long known but never seen. That was all that really interested me, and I haven't bought the second DVD. Don't even know what it's about because for me the historicity case is quite dead.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I wish you all the best for the holiday season, Ray.

[_Ray A]

I wish you all the best for the holiday season, Ray.

And best to you and your family as well.

[_GoodK]

I passed on a link to a public message board.

You passed several links as I've demonstrated.

GoodK grows more and more angry with the passage of time. It's a curious phenomenon.

Here is my usual response, [DELETED].


I would offer an alternative hypothesis. One that posits I am simply and steadily reminding the crowd here - each time you insist otherwise - of your passive aggressive trampling through my family life. If you are ever insulted in the process, I am all the more pleased.

I, like a few others here, am not fooled by the benign and victimized persona you parade online. I've had the benefit - like Quinn - of really feeling the weight (no pun intended) of your presence in my life.

[2. No personal attacks]

[_Rollo Tomasi]

GoodK grows more and more angry with the passage of time. It's a curious phenomenon.

Here is my usual response, my dear charlatan.
I would offer an alternative hypothesis. One that posits I am simply and steadily reminding the crowd here - each time you insist otherwise - of your passive aggressive trampling through my family life. If you are ever insulted in the process, I am all the more pleased.

I, like a few others here, am not fooled by the benign and victimized persona you parade online. I've had the benefit - like Quinn - of really feeling the weight (no pun intended) of your presence in my life.

Very well said.

[Guest]

Those days are gone, at least here in Oz, when an apostle would give that much time to one chapel.

One need only read President Hinckley's autobiography, Elder Maxwells biography, President Faust, et al. to know that these things happened before and they still happen today. It is demonstrably so. In fact President Monson is well known for his penchant for visiting the sick and otherwise afflicted members.

McMurrin was friends with some of the highest leaders of the Church, and as noted a close friend of Mc Kay. He was the grandson of a General Authority and grew up in those circles, and was an influential American philosopher and educator.

My Grandpa was none of those things you described, and yet he still had opportunity to rub shoulders with a lot of the GA's. He even went down to visit with the Hopi's one time with Brother Nibley. You should see the people he has corresponded with; it's amazing considering his humble background.

You know why he knew these people and did so much with so many great people? Because he didn't sit on his ass all day chatting on a message board. He was a doer! Not an identifier of problems with no plan or action towards resolution.

Consider this, I don't know Dan Peterson at all. I've met him once at a FAIR conference and it was cordial but nothing in depth. And we rarely have exchanges on the boards except for the recent one that was superficial and jovial. But if I really wanted to do or see the things he does and sees...I could make it happen. Somehow I could see the Dome of the Rock with Dan Peterson. Somehow, someway. Because I dream. I live to dream. And then I work my ass off to make it happen.

If my life's dream and goal was to help unseal the financial records of the Church, and the Spirit seemed to confirm this course, well then there is nothing to fear whatsoever. And I would know the outcome before I began. My heroes are men and women of dreams and action! Doers and believers.

Get into action is what I say.

It's not really fair to expect that harmony could have such influence, even if she had a one-off meeting with an apostle.

It doesn't need to stop there. There have been a many great people of history who began as people of no "influence". Shall I make a list for you? I'm a first generation American. I came and rose up from the filthy starving hungry gutter. I now own a multi million dollar business. You think that came from sitting around hoping someone would come visit me because I deserved it? Hell no. It came from Belief and from Back breaking, brain splitting hard Work! That's it. This pathetic sense of self entitlement is worthless and breeds a victim mentality. I pity that.

If her criticisms irritate you, it's because this is a board largely inhabited by critics. Outside of this board I have almost zero discussions about Mormonism, except with a few Muslim friends I work with. And to any irritated by her criticisms, you always have the safe sanctuary of MAD where you don't have to put up with it.

It's not her criticisms Ray, it's that she doesn't possess the moral fortitude to put up or shut up. You're afraid of Excommunication Harmony?

Tell that to Steven Biko. He gave his life for his beliefs. What are you willing to sacrifice for yours.

"The power of a movement lies in the fact that it can indeed change the habits of people. This change is not the result of force but of dedication, of moral persuasion." Bantu Steven Biko




Big UP!

Lamanite

[_LifeOnaPlate]

agreed.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

You know why he knew these people and did so much with so many great people? Because he didn't sit on his ass all day chatting on a message board.

Did the Internet exist back then?

He was a doer!

Is writing not doing?

Not an identifier of problems with no plan or action towards resolution.

Recognizing the problem is the first step.

Somehow, someway. Because I dream. I live to dream. And then I work my ass off to make it happen.

I'd like to solve world hunger, but my cynical self tells me I alone can't do it.

If my life's dream and goal was to help unseal the financial records of the Church, and the Spirit seemed to confirm this course, well then there is nothing to fear whatsoever. And I would know the outcome before I began. My heroes are men and women of dreams and action! Doers and believers.

Ah, to be young and idealistic again. I miss that.

It's not her criticisms Ray, it's that she doesn't possess the moral fortitude to put up or shut up.

This is utter BS. Earth to Lamanite: return to reality, son.

Tell that to Steven Biko. He gave his life for his beliefs.

He didn't give it -- they took it from him.