Bible verse by verse

[Guest]

Please see: http://www.bibleprobe.com/chinese.htm

You may also wish to consider the following: http://www.ukapologetics.net/2creationi ... efence.htm

This the ideogram chwan(2) that seems to get misrepresented the most, so I'll start with this one. There are two reasons why this ideogram has nothing to do with the story of the Biblical flood:

1) This (chwan(2)) is a modern complex character form. The ancient form of this character looked like this (below). Note the absence of the phonetic elements, which some Christians like to misrepresent as meaning "eight people". This is what I was referring to when I said LittleNipper had it "bass ackwards".



2) The phonetic element, yan(3), does not mean "eight people"**. Here is how Wikitionary defines this element:

㕣 (radical 30 口+2, 05 strokes, cangjie input (CR))

a marsh at the foot of the hills
(interchangeable with 湢 沇) name of a river
References[edit]
KangXi: page 172, character 9
Hanyu Da Zidian: volume 1, page 570, character 2

**When a radical is used as a phonetic root (as in this case), it only affects the pronunciation, not the definition.

[Guest]

What do you know about Chinese? You said you are a linguist. You need to investigate the truthfulness of the reputed encoded Chinese characters regarding Noah's Flood.

I know more than enough about that silly notion.

You are obviously in a place to do such from a professional standpoint on your own. You don't need to pay any attention to what other say ---- or do you? There maybe scholars who say that we never landed on the moon, but not any in space/aeronautics research, who believe that. So, here is a mission for you as a linguistic scholar ----- or am I just "naïve" in imagining that you really want to find truth and not just agreement for your own bias?

Please see: http://www.bibleprobe.com/chinese.htm

This is ignorant etymological nonsense and nothing more. On boat, the stereotypical conceptualization of the generic family is two great-grandparents, two grandparents, two parents, and two children. In other words, a family of eight is just a generic expression. It has no ties to Noah's ark.

The character on that site for "devil" is incorrect. The character from the oracles used combined the character for an ugly head on the top and the character for a human on the bottom. The modern character represents a graphic alignment with the other more common characters.

The character they say means "covet" is actually the adjective "greedy," and the two trees shown together actually means "forest," or "grove." Also, the symbol for "woman" is frequently used to convey a negative connotation, as is the case with "greedy." So in the end, it has nothing whatsoever to do with Eve or any two trees.

Oh, and the picture of the chariot wheel near the end of the article? That's a modern boat wheel. And no, they haven't found petrified bones or chariot wheels, much less either from the right time period. This is invented nonsense for naïve hobbyists.

You may also wish to consider the following: http://www.ukapologetics.net/2creationi ... efence.htm

Yeah, that's a load of ignorant nonsense. Fossil fuels deny evolutionary science? Good grief.

Here is what I see as your problem areas, starting from the bottom. How did the fossils fuels (found hundreds of feet below the level of the earths surface) originate? How did they get submerged there if not the result of an oxygen depriving turbulent flood? Coal and oil are mainly the end result of pressure and not oxidation. Plant and animal residue dissolves, is eaten, dries up and is blown away. It just doesn't remain In in one spot long enough to amount to anything ----------- UNLESS something special happens out of the mundane.

Secondly, did you ever wonder why women were looked upon as a negative connotation? Adam certainly blamed God for creating the woman. Why two trees and not 3? There were two trees in the Garden. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (which man was not to touch) and the Tree of Life (which man was driven out of the Garden so as to prevent eating of it, and remaining in an endless state of eternal worsening depravity).

Thirdly, the wheel is not something I considered, because unless the men, horses and chariots were submerged in heaps of mud ----- everything disappears ----- which again brings into question any thoughts that fossil fuels could come about by any means other than a gargantuan cataclysm, such as the Flood/asteroid strike.

And finally, concerning the boat, as the stereotypical conceptualization of the generic family is two great-grandparents, two grandparents, two parents, and two children. I thought that people once had large numbers of children, and that people died off at very young ages, and that there are parents for both the wife and the husband (the joining of two families). I just see your opinion is a "conceptualization" of how such a Character might have come to be, and not the end all logical absolute. My educated guess is that the ones who came to a non-biblical opinion simply had no knowledge of the Bible or were looking to ignore it and sound more "conceptual." I find the Biblical "conceptualization" far more intriguing. And since even linguists are now pretty certain that all language originated from one area, it is likely everyone shared many of the very same "folk" stories that they carried away with them to various parts of this planet.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

And finally, concerning the boat, as the stereotypical conceptualization of the generic family is two great-grandparents, two grandparents, two parents, and two children.

The phonetic element of this ideogram, yan(3), does not mean "eight people". It's definition is as follows:

㕣 (radical 30 口+2, 05 strokes, cangjie input (CR))

a marsh at the foot of the hills
(interchangeable with 湢 沇) name of a river
References
KangXi: page 172, character 9
Hanyu Da Zidian: volume 1, page 570, character 2

There is nothing in this ideogram that signifies the presence of eight people on a boat. And in any case, when a radical is used as a phonetic root (as in this case), it only affects the pronunciation, not the definition.

[_LittleNipper]

There is a story from ancient China which is very similar to Noah's ark. This story describes a global flood. In the story, the water from the flood reached to the sun and the heaven, and covered all the mountains and made all the living things in the earth sink into the water. In the middle of the global flood period, a hero appeared named Noah (女嬅). In the story, this hero is female. She turned back the flood and helped to repopulated the world. The story was written in ancient Chinese characters. Researchers analyzed the ancient Chinese characters and found that oracle Bone and Seal characters are related with flood(洪) and boat(舟)and they represent the discovery of evidence for Noah's ark in the Chinese characters. Also, the story includes that Noah built the ark and took eight worshipers and 'the remnants of the world' and then finally found ground.

These two story have same based- story lines. A rebellious group of people cause a global flood from the heaven, a hero saves some of the creatures in the world, and fixed the problem and repopulated living creatures in the earth.

The Chinese version of Noah's Flood began with a rebellious group of people bringing a great flood during legendary period(about 2500BC). In the text of Huai Nan Zi(南子, written in 200BC), the North, South, East, and West poles supported the heavens as a canopy. Somehow, this canopy broke into nine parts, thus, the land of China emerged. Because of the broken heaven, the water from the heavens could not be stopped and fire escaped, causing a global flood. The flood reached to the heavens and the sun, and covered all the living creatures even high mountains. In the middle of this calamity, a female hero named Noah(女嬅) appeared and filled the holes in the sky with colorful stones and fixed the broken poles using four turtle legs. She helped the living creatures, humans and animals to repopulate in the world.

In the Chinese story of Noah's ark, they used the characters which represent similarity.

船

This character is combined of the Chinese character of mouth, eight, and vessel, which is related with the story of Noah's ark.
The meaning of the character is BOAT The character combine of 舟(which means vessel), 八(meaning eight), 口(meaning mouth).In the Chinese character of boat have multiple characters and when we look at the character separately, we find the meaning of combination; 八+口(it sometimes means a person)+舟= eight people in the boat. This character was used in the ancient Chinese story of Noah's ark. In the ark of Noah story, eight worshipers entered the ark.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

The meaning of the character is BOAT...

The ancient version of this ideogram lacks the phonetic root that certain Christians like to misrepresent as meaning "eight mouths". This is what I meant when I said you had it "bass ackwards".

The character combine of 舟(which means vessel), 八(meaning eight), 口(meaning mouth).

Wrong--it combines the radical for "dugout canoe" (舟) with the phonetic root for "marsh" (㕣). This particular phonetic root has nothing to do with "eight persons".

In the Chinese character of boat have multiple characters...

No, it does not have "multiple characters". Like almost every other ideogram, it has a radical and a phonetic root.

...and when we look at the character separately, we can found the meaning of combination; 八+口(it sometimes also have a meaning of person)+舟= eight people in the boat.

Wrong, it's not a "character combination". It's a five-stroke radical that's listed in the stroke-order index in the dictionary.

This character was used in the ancient Chinese story of Noah's ark.

Wrong again; 女嬅 does not equal Noah. You would know this if you knew how to use a Chinese dictionary.

In the ark of Noah story, eight of worshiper took the ark. Eight of people also mentioned in the story of Noah's ark; they also took eight people in the ark. Preparing the Chinese story (and the using of characters in the story) and the story of Noah's ark, we can see the similar story lines.

This is incomprehensible gibberish. Please proofread your posts before you submit.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

There is a story from ancient China which is very similar to Noah's ark. This story describes a global flood. In the story, the water from the flood reached to the sun and the heaven, and covered all the mountains and made all the living things in the earth sink into the water. In the middle of the global flood period, a hero appeared named Noah (女嬅). In the story, this hero is female. She turned back the flood and helped to repopulated the world. The story was written in ancient Chinese characters. Researchers analyzed the ancient Chinese characters and found that oracle Bone and Seal characters are related with flood(洪) and boat(舟)and they represent the discovery of evidence for Noah's ark in the Chinese characters. Also, the story includes that Noah built the ark and took eight worshipers and 'the remnants of the world' and then finally found ground.

The myth that ancient Chinese scholars knew about the Biblical flood originates fron the Shan(1) Hai(3) Jing(1) (山海經) or in English, The Classic of the Mountains and the Seas.

The Shan(1) Hai(3) Jing(1) story says that when a great flood came, Kun ("Hugefish") stole breathing-soil (the matter of creation) from the great god to dam the waters, but he did not wait for the great god to command him to use it, so the great god ordered Kun killed. Kun was later restored to life and gave birth to Yu who, at the great god's command, completed Kun's work of damming the flood waters.

As you can see, the similarities between the Biblical flood and the great flood of the Shan(1) Hai(3) Jing(1) are superficial and all but nonexistent.

[_LittleNipper]

There is a story from ancient China which is very similar to Noah's ark. This story describes a global flood. In the story, the water from the flood reached to the sun and the heaven, and covered all the mountains and made all the living things in the earth sink into the water. In the middle of the global flood period, a hero appeared named Noah (女嬅). In the story, this hero is female. She turned back the flood and helped to repopulated the world. The story was written in ancient Chinese characters. Researchers analyzed the ancient Chinese characters and found that oracle Bone and Seal characters are related with flood(洪) and boat(舟)and they represent the discovery of evidence for Noah's ark in the Chinese characters. Also, the story includes that Noah built the ark and took eight worshipers and 'the remnants of the world' and then finally found ground.

The myth that ancient Chinese scholars knew about the Biblical flood originates fron the Shan(1) Hai(3) Jing(1) (山海經) or in English, The Classic of the Mountains and the Seas.

The Shan(1) Hai(3) Jing(1) story says that when a great flood came, Kun ("Hugefish") stole breathing-soil (the matter of creation) from the great god to dam the waters, but he did not wait for the great god to command him to use it, so the great god ordered Kun killed. Kun was later restored to life and gave birth to Yu who, at the great god's command, completed Kun's work of damming the flood waters.

As you can see, the similarities between the Biblical flood and the great flood of the Shan(1) Hai(3) Jing(1) are superficial and all but nonexistent.

Of course there are differences! The Biblical epic is a true account as provided by God. The Chinese version is a half remembered tale based on an account that has been corrupted over time. And Noah and the 8 worshippers and the Character for Boat? These hardly seem to be superficial. They are impossible to explain unless one is willing to admit that both the Chinese tale and the Biblical account have the same starting point ----- being word of mouth from father to son, grandfather to grandson and so on ---- from eyewitnesses before the races of man split. Noah had three sons and each son had a wife. According to the Biblical record, Shem is the original forefather of both the West Asian people and East Asian people. In the Genesis account, the ancestry of all the East Asian people can be traced to Shem. Shem means honourable name, which fits well with East Asian cultural values

[Guest]

1 Kings 17:1-24 Elijah was from Tishbe in Gilead. He told King Ahab, “As surely as the Lord, the God of Israel, lives—the God I serve—there will be no dew or rain during the next few years until I give the word!” The Lord said to Elijah, “Go to the east and hide by Kerith Brook, near where it enters the Jordan River. Drink from the brook and eat what the ravens bring you, for I have commanded them to provide food.”

Elijah did as the Lord told him and camped beside Kerith Brook, east of the Jordan. Ravens brought him bread and meat every morning and evening, and he drank from the brook. But after a while the brook dried up, for there was no rainfall anywhere in the land. Then the Lord sent Elijah to go and live in the village of Zarephath, near the city of Sidon. God has instructed a widow there to feed Elijah. When he arrived at the gates of the village, he saw a widow gathering sticks, and asked her to bring him ma cup of water. As she was going to get it, he called to her, “Bring me a bite of bread, too.”

She said, “I swear by the Lord your God that I don’t have a single piece of bread in the house. And I have only a handful of flour left in a pitcher and a little cooking oil in the bottom of a jug. I was just gathering two sticks (The meaning of the TWO sticks seems to point to the CROSS) to cook this last meal, and then my son and I will die.”

Elijah told her not to be afraid, but to continue just as she said; however, she is to make a little bread for Elijah first. Then use what’s left to prepare a meal for herself and son. For the Lord, the God informs Elijah that there will always be flour and olive oil left in your containers until the time when the Lord sends rain and the crops grow again!

So this widow did as Elijah said, and she and Elijah and her family continued to eat for many days. There was always enough flour and olive oil left in the containers, just as the Lord had promised through Elijah. Some time later the woman’s son became sick. He grew worse and worse, and finally he died. Then she said to Elijah, “Man of God, what have you done to me? Have you come here to point out my sins and kill my son?” Elijah replied, “Give me your son.” And he took the child’s body from her arms, carried him up the stairs to the room where he was staying, and laid the body on his bed.

Elijah cried out to the Lord, “O Lord my God, why have you brought tragedy to this widow who has opened her home to me, causing her son to die?” And he stretched himself out over the child three times (Again, this is likely a sign of Jesus being dead 3 days) and cried out to the Lord, “O Lord my God, please let this child’s life return to him.” The Lord heard Elijah’s prayer, and the life of the child returned, and he arose! Then Elijah brought him down from the upper room and gave him to his mother. “Look!” he said. “Your son is alive!”

Then the woman told Elijah, “Now I know for sure that you are a man of God, and that the Lord truly speaks through you.”


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


1 And Elijah the Tishbite, of the inhabitants of Gilead, saith unto Ahab, `Jehovah, God of Israel, liveth, before whom I have stood, there is not these years dew and rain, except according to my word.'

2 And the word of Jehovah is unto him, saying,

3 `Go from this [place]; and thou hast turned for thee eastward, and been hidden by the brook Cherith, that [is] on the front of the Jordan,

4 and it hath been, from the brook thou dost drink, and the ravens I have commanded to sustain thee there.'

5 And he goeth and doth according to the word of Jehovah, yea, he goeth and dwelleth by the brook Cherith, that [is] on the front of the Jordan,

6 and the ravens are bringing to him bread and flesh in the morning, and bread and flesh in the evening, and of the brook he drinketh.

7 And it cometh to pass, at the end of days, that the brook drieth up, for there hath been no rain in the land,

8 and the word of Jehovah is unto him, saying,

9 `Rise, go to Zarephath, that [is] to Zidon, and thou hast dwelt there; lo, I have commanded there a widow woman to sustain thee.'

10 And he riseth, and goeth to Zarephath, and cometh in unto the opening of the city, and lo there, a widow woman gathering sticks, and he calleth unto her, and saith, `Bring, I pray thee, to me, a little water in a vessel, and I drink.'

11 And she goeth to bring [it], and he calleth unto her and saith, `Bring, I pray thee, to me a morsel of bread in thy hand.'

12 And she saith, `Jehovah thy God liveth, I have not a cake, but the fulness of the hand of meal in a pitcher, and a little oil in a dish; and lo, I am gathering two sticks, and have gone in and prepared it for myself, and for my son, and we have eaten it -- and died.'

13 And Elijah saith unto her, `Fear not, go, do according to thy word, only make for me thence a little cake, in the first place, and thou hast brought out to me; and for thee and for thy son make -- last;

14 for thus said Jehovah, God of Israel, The pitcher of meal is not consumed, and the dish of oil is not lacking, till the day of Jehovah's giving a shower on the face of the ground.'

15 And she goeth, and doth according to the word of Elijah, and she eateth, she and he, and her household -- days;

16 the pitcher of meal was not consumed, and the dish of oil did not lack, according to the word of Jehovah that He spake by the hand of Elijah.

17 And it cometh to pass, after these things, the son of the woman, mistress of the house, hath been sick, and his sickness is very severe till that no breath hath been left in him.

18 And she saith unto Elijah, `What -- to me and to thee, O man of God? thou hast come unto me to cause mine iniquity to be remembered, and to put my son to death!'

19 And he saith unto her, `Give to me thy son;' and he taketh him out of her bosom, and taketh him up unto the upper chamber where he is abiding, and layeth him on his own bed,

20 and crieth unto Jehovah, and saith, `Jehovah my God, also on the widow with whom I am sojourning hast Thou done evil -- to put her son to death?'

21 And he stretcheth himself out on the lad three times, and calleth unto Jehovah, and saith, `O Jehovah my God, let turn back, I pray Thee, the soul of this lad into his midst;'

22 and Jehovah hearkeneth to the voice of Elijah, and the soul of the lad turneth back into his midst, and he liveth.

23 And Elijah taketh the lad, and bringeth him down from the upper chamber of the house, and giveth him to his mother, and Elijah saith, `See, thy son liveth!'

24 And the woman saith unto Elijah, `Now, this I have known, that a man of God thou [art], and the word of Jehovah in thy mouth [is] truth.'

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Of course there are differences! The Biblical epic is a true account as provided by God. The Chinese version is a half remembered tale based on an account that has been corrupted over time.

Both are examples of cultural mythology.

And Noah and the 8 worshippers and the Character for Boat?

Which one? The archaic ideogram (舟)? Or the modern complex ideogram (船)? Neither one says anything about "8 worshippers". Go look it up in the dictionary.

These hardly seem to be superficial.

Niether the ideogram for chwan(2), nor for jou(1), nor the summary from the Shan(1) Hai(3) Jing(1) say anything about eight people on a boat. Go look it up in the dictionary.

They are impossible to explain unless one is willing to admit that both the Chinese tale and the Biblical account have the same starting point...

No--you are misrepresenting both the ideograms and what it says in the Shan(1) Hai(3) Jing(1).

In short, you are once again engaging in pious fraud.

Why do some Christians feel they need to lie in order to propagate their beliefs?

[_The Erotic Apologist]

This is a picture of Nu(2) Hwa(3) from the Shan(1) Hai(3) Jing(1).

Does this bear any resemblance at all to the Biblical Noah???