Mormonism is not "Christianity"

[_MsJack]

So are you saying "Christian" should be defined as something other than one who believes Jesus Christ is THE Savior, and accepts His teachings as true?

I don't want a rehash of earlier conversations, if we can avoid it, but I'd be interested in your take on that question. Additionally, if so, what would you define "Christian" as?

Don't do it, KimberlyAnn!

[_MrStakhanovite]

hey guys, sorry I'm late to the party...


I think we should define Christians by those who adhere to ecumenical councils!

[_stemelbow]

So are you saying "Christian" should be defined as something other than one who believes Jesus Christ is THE Savior, and accepts His teachings as true?

I don't want a rehash of earlier conversations, if we can avoid it, but I'd be interested in your take on that question. Additionally, if so, what would you define "Christian" as?

Don't do it, KimberlyAnn!

You're funny, MsJack. You sound like the Shadowfax dude who graces my signature. Let's get this clear, do you agree with that statement?

[_Hoops]

Let me assure you, Hoops, the reality you are experiencing is not the reality I am experiencing.

I'm sure.

My reality says this: Hoops was hopelessly ambiguous in explaining, in a clear, forthright manner, Hoops' position on this thread, so I did the best I could to piece together Hoops' meaning from Hoops' statements. Hoops is now claiming I had it entirely wrong, so I will hope that Hoops will now clarify.

When you respond to something that I've not written I can understand how difficult it was for you.

Does any part of you recognize, Hoops, how extraordinarily difficult it has been to get clear, forthright answers and explanations from you on this thread?

No, I don't. I've responded clearly. You've taken my response and added to or changed slightly and ran with that. not much I can do about that.

You've yet to answer Jason's simple questions, for heaven's sake.

I thought I was talking to you.

It's like pulling teeth. I would never have spent the time I have with you on this thread were I not on break right now and frittering time away (largely procrastinating more important jobs, to be honest.

Me to.

[_Jason Bourne]

According to Joseph Smith himself, Mormonism came about precisely because the long-established Christian creeds, both Catholic and Protestant, were abominations.

Yes.....

Christian ministers were, for years, portrayed in a very unflattering light in Mormon temple ceremonies.

Yes......

For the Mormon church to claim to be Christian alongside, say, Methodists, Baptists, Episcopalians, Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc., is extremely disingenuous.

Is that what any Mormon on this thread is claiming? Did anyone say "We are the same type of Christian you are? I have held all along that Mormonism is not Orthodox or even what we recognize as historic Christianity. Yet it is Christian and as noted in its purest form claims to be a restoration of THE original Christian Church.

Has Mormonism or its leaders ever claimed not to be Christian? I do not think so.

I grew up being taught that Mormonism was exclusively true and the only religion whereby men could be saved.

Saved in the sense of exaltation in the highest degree glory, yes.

Why else baptize the dead of other faiths? Why else rebaptize converts who have been previously baptized in Christian churches? Mormonism rejects the Christianity of long-established Christian denominations, yet wants to claim the title right along with them? They want to have their cake and eat it, too.

No not really. Mormonism recognizes what it terms as apostate Christianity as containing many truths but mainly lacking the authority of to administer ordinances of salvation.

I do not believe the Mormon church will ever be widely viewed as Christian by outsiders,

You may be right. Yet it is a Christian sect. Many may wish to view it heretical or what have you that are in the more orthodox traditions.

for many reasons, not the least of which is the Mormon doctrine that Jesus is a created being, spiritually and physically, just like other men and women. That belief wouldn't pass muster with any Christian I know, of any denomination.

I think this is not totally accurate as I have noted from LDS sources on this very thread. Jesus in Mormon doctrine was never just like other men and women. Jesus was chosen and the only begotten of the father from the beginning and already One with God ( meaning in mind, might, glory and power but not substance) before he was born. That is not like other men and women.

[_Jason Bourne]

hey guys, sorry I'm late to the party...


I think we should define Christians by those who adhere to ecumenical councils!

Why?

[_consiglieri]

Please supply me with scriptural evidences that Jesus is fully God and fully man.

My understanding is that this view of Jesus was adopted by the proto-orthodox Christian Church as a direct response to other competing forms of Christianity, some of which held that Jesus was fully God, and others which held Jesus was fully man.

Once I understood that the Nicene Creed (among others) can most aptly be read not so much as a declaration of belief, but a response to the beliefs of heterodox others, it became much easier for me to understand.


Also, since I am late coming to this party, I will share my experience that the reasons most often given for excluding Mormons from the Christian Clubhouse are:

1. Failure to accept the creedal definition of the Trinity;

2. Failure to accept the Bible as the complete and inerrant Word of God (actually that's two); and,

3. Failure to accept that works play no role in our salvation and/or judgment.


At least, this has been my experience.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

P.S. Did I mention I'm a God now?

[_Aristotle Smith]

Is that what any Mormon on this thread is claiming? Did anyone say "We are the same type of Christian you are?

For a generic grouping term to have any meaning, there has to be some commonality. At some point the differences become stark enough so that "We aren't the same type of X" becomes functionally equivalent to "We aren't X."

I have held all along that Mormonism is not Orthodox or even what we recognize as historic Christianity. Yet it is Christian and as noted in its purest form claims to be a restoration of THE original Christian Church.

So here is the choice Mormons have to make. Either 1) Mormons are Christians and are the only Christians or 2) Mormons are a different species of religious believer and the other people who call themselves Christians are Christians. Given what you just said, I don't see how anyone can have it both ways. If you relax the claim that Mormons are the restoration of THE original Christian church, then you are no longer forced into a dichotomy.

Has Mormonism or its leaders ever claimed not to be Christian? I do not think so.

No, but Brigham said these gems:

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171).

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199).

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked on to the earth" (Journal of Discourses 6:176).

"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century" (Journal of Discourses 6:167).

"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast." (Journal of Discourses 6:25).

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing….Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest of fools; they know neither God nor the things of God" (Journal of Discourses 13:225).

So I guess according to Brigham, Mormons can only be Christian if they also agree that Mormons are: as ignorant of God as the brute beast, a perfect pack of nonsense, hatched in hell, etc..

[_Yoda]

Brigham Young was a whack job.

[_consiglieri]

Brigham Young was a whack job.

But he's my whack job.