Joseph Smith--the best 'wing man' Brigham Young ever had

[huckelberry]

After a dozen pages reviewing seems and AI possibly a return to the subject. Perhaps the matter of Elizabeth and Martha is simple and done.

I was wondering what it was about Martha's statement which was disturbing. Why try to reject it? Martha reports being given a proposal of polygamy by the leaders of the church. She was given free choice and her choice was respected.

She was asked to keep it a secret, she failed to do that so people in the know who were committed to keeping it a secret were obligated to deny her report.

[Marcus]

...I was wondering what it was about Martha's statement which was disturbing. Why try to reject it? Martha reports being given a proposal of polygamy by the leaders of the church. She was given free choice and her choice was respected...

That's an interesting way to describe an event wherein a young girl is propositioned by men who try to coerce her into engaging in illegal and immoral behavior. "Free choice" and "respect" are not the terms I would use to describe situations inside such a cult-like setting.

[sock puppet]

...I was wondering what it was about Martha's statement which was disturbing. Why try to reject it? Martha reports being given a proposal of polygamy by the leaders of the church. She was given free choice and her choice was respected...

That's an interesting way to describe an event wherein a young girl is propositioned by men who try to coerce her into engaging in illegal and immoral behavior. "Free choice" and "respect" are not the terms I would use to describe situations inside such a cult-like setting.

Why indeed did Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and/or Heber C. Kimball try to reject Martha's statement? Because it is a very detailed account of a very indecent proposal. Men of God? Ha!

[huckelberry]

...I was wondering what it was about Martha's statement which was disturbing. Why try to reject it? Martha reports being given a proposal of polygamy by the leaders of the church. She was given free choice and her choice was respected...

That's an interesting way to describe an event wherein a young girl is propositioned by men who try to coerce her into engaging in illegal and immoral behavior. "Free choice" and "respect" are not the terms I would use to describe situations inside such a cult-like setting.

Marcus, I intended to leave some tension in my comment. I did focus on the fact that Martha's statement clearly fits within what became well documented about Nauvoo polygamy. It presents no reason to doubt. In fact one might wonder how such a story would be imagined. Polygamy was secret so to know about it you would have been introduced to the idea in some manner similar to what Martha describes.

In the context of Nauvoo her story is ordinary.

Even though polygamy exists in my family background I am glad to be separate from it. I do find it creepy and manipulative but I am not a believer in the Joseph Smith story.

[huckelberry]

Elizabeth does not negate the sexual improprieties attempted on Martha. Elizabeth does not whitewash Smith's, Young's and Kimball's abhorrent behavior.

She did contest Marth's reliability and motives. The whole thing is rather confusing in some respects. I've already stated my question as to Martha's motives and why she did what she did. Others did also:

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_ ... ton-focus/

Top affidavit is quite harsh. Elizabeth signed it.

Regards,
MG

Elizabeth's statement is interesting and a bit of an embarrassment. It is proposing she knows Brigham Young to be a person who would not propose polygamy. He just was not that sort of man to get involved in polygamy.

I was puzzled by the remark about seeking the work of Aristotle from a Young man's bag. I was drawing a blank until it occurred to me, euphemism for a sexual contact of some sort.

Naughty Martha imagines Brigham Young would contemplate polygamy. What a thing.

[Marcus]

That's an interesting way to describe an event wherein a young girl is propositioned by men who try to coerce her into engaging in illegal and immoral behavior. "Free choice" and "respect" are not the terms I would use to describe situations inside such a cult-like setting.

Marcus, I intended to leave some tension in my comment. I did focus on the fact that Martha's statement clearly fits within what became well documented about Nauvoo polygamy. It presents no reason to doubt. In fact one might wonder how such a story would be imagined. Polygamy was secret so to know about it you would have been introduced to the idea in some manner similar to what Martha describes.

In the context of Nauvoo her story is ordinary.

Excellent point. I see your take now.

Even though polygamy exists in my family background I am glad to be separate from it.

You and me both.

[Chap]

I was puzzled by the remark about seeking the work of Aristotle from a Young man's bag. I was drawing a blank until it occurred to me, euphemism for a sexual contact of some sort.

You are referring to this, I take it (my bolding)

TESTIMONY OF J. McILWRICK - I do know that the sister of my wife, Martha Brotherton, is a deliberate liar, and also a wilful inventor of lies; and that she has also to my certain knowledge at sundry times, circulated lies of a base kind, concerning those whom she knew to be innocent of what she alleged against them. She has also stooped to many actions which would be degrading to persons of common decency, such as lying on the top of a young man when he was in bed, and seeking Aristotle’s work from a young seaman’s box. And I further state that I am acquainted with Gen. Joseph Smith, President Brigham Young, and Elder Heber C. Kimball, having had the privilege of being intimate with the latter gentleman for several months in England. And I believe them to be men who lead holy and virtuous lives, and men who exhibit a philanthropic spirit to all the human family without respect of persons; and I also know for a truth that the forenamed Martha Brotherton has wickedly endeavored to injure the character of these gentlemen; and many besides myself can testify that the statements which she has reported in different places, are quite contrary to those she related here. JOHN McILWRICK.

We Elizabeth Brotherton, and Mary McIlwrick, sisters of the said Martha Brotherton, concur in the above sentiments.

ELIZABETH BROTHERTON. MARY McILWRICK.

Sworn to, and subscribed, before me, this 27th day of August A. D. 1842. E. ROBINSON, Justice of Peace, for Hancock Co. Ill.

In fact, "The Works of Aristotle" was commonly used as a reference to a widely circulated book about sexuality:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle%27s_Masterpiece

Aristotle's Masterpiece, also known as The Works of Aristotle, the Famous Philosopher, is a sex manual and a midwifery book that was popular in England from the early modern period through to the nineteenth century. It was first published in 1684 and written by an unknown author who falsely claimed to be Aristotle.[1] As a consequence the author is now described as a Pseudo-Aristotle, the collective name for unidentified authors who masqueraded as Aristotle. Some claim that the book was banned in Britain until the 1960s,[2] although there was no provision in the UK for "banning" books as such. However, reputable publishers and booksellers might have been cautious about selling Aristotle's Masterpiece, at least in the wake of the 1857 Obscene Publications Act.[3]

The content of the version most likely to have been available in the 19th century was as follows:

The first part covers anatomy, sexual intercourse and marriage. The second part was intended for married women and explains pregnancy and midwifery.

The first part starts with a description of the male and female sex organs in the first chapter. The second chapter advocates sexual intercourse in monogamous relationships and warns against polygamy and adultery, because both are forbidden by Christian doctrine. It finishes with an explanation of when the reproductive age begins and ends. The third chapter explores virginity. It correctly states that a torn hymen does not necessarily mean a woman is not a virgin.

The second part continues with the process of fertilisation, pregnancy, and how the sex of the fetus can be determined. The second chapter provides advice on how women can become pregnant. The third chapter describes the progress of pregnancy. Failure of the pregnancy, infertility and its causes are the subject of the fourth chapter. The part ends with a chapter on things women should do and avoid during their pregnancy.

It is revealing of the temper of the times that a young woman's search for information about human sexuality was seen as a sign of depravity on her part.

[Bret Ripley]

In fact, "The Works of Aristotle" was commonly used as a reference to a widely circulated book about sexuality:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle%27s_Masterpiece

Thanks for this, Chap. I was baffled by the reference to "The Works of Aristotle" but now all is clear.

[sock puppet]

She did contest Marth's reliability and motives. The whole thing is rather confusing in some respects. I've already stated my question as to Martha's motives and why she did what she did. Others did also:

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_ ... ton-focus/

Top affidavit is quite harsh. Elizabeth signed it.

Regards,
MG

As I question how ridiculous Joseph Smith was, given his obvious motives--to bag as many babes as he could using his religious schtick.