Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehlin?

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_RayAgostini

Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli

Post by _RayAgostini »

Kishkumen wrote:
What position did McKay occupy at the time, Ray? What was different about the historical situation? I am sure that an extremely bright person like yourself can come up with numerous solid reasons why your demand is ridiculous.


I made a "demand"? I thought I was giving an example of a GA supporting a "heretic", and wondering why it's so important to conceal the identity of this GA? If this need is so great, then perhaps this GA does not have the support of other GAs, and would be risking himself by being public on this. In any case, this doesn't from one moment suggest that this is the "direction the Church is moving in". Just a reality check.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli

Post by _Kishkumen »

static wrote:I believe John Dehlin was misinformed, and is perpetuating that misinformation because he doesn't like DCP or Greg. He isn't necessarily lying; he probably didn't know he was misinformed. Like me, and like you he probably automatically believes every wacko conspiracy theory before any evidence is presented.


At least have the guts to own up to the fact that you implied John was lying. But you can't, because you are a passive-aggressive, deceptive little weasel, who lied at the outset of his entrance into this board and continues to lie.

In other words, he perpetuated misinformation. Unless a "hit piece" is produced, I withhold judgement on its existence. Knowing Greg, I choose to believe it doesn't exist at all.


Yeah, we know Greg from his apologetic writings, and that is exactly why we believe that he did write said piece. It is entirely characteristic of his ethic to write a poison pen letter to one of his ideological foes in a journal. All you are telling us is exactly how little we should regard your judgment and character.

I realize this is in stark contrast to your belief system, where, if DCP says something exists but can't produce it (Carla Ogden letter) you automatically believe it never existed. When Dehlin says any old thing you automatically believe him.


I know you like to pretend that you are slow for the sake of the dimwits who just might let these little deceptions slide, but how likely do you think it is that John Dehlin, being in the position he has placed himself, would lie about having solid information implicating a General Authority in his defense, if it were not true? Indeed, it is not something that someone who has shown the relative restraint he has shown over the years, would ever place out in there on a whim.

On the other hand, we have Daniel Peterson, who, for the sake of his cause, has slipped around more gaffes by prevarication than any of us can probably ever hope to remember. What risk does Daniel take by saying that he vaguely remembered some Watson letter that says exactly what the current party line on an issue would demand? Zilch. Nada. Zip. Nihil.

So, "static," that is why anyone with a lick of common sense would accept John's word on his claim over Daniel's on the Carla Ogden fax, which, as we know, only became known as the Carla Ogden fax through the careful and relentless questioning of apologists by so-called "critics."

Well, I can't blame you. I love conspiracy theories, too. This board is full of them.


You apparently have no idea what constitutes a conspiracy theory, as often as you abuse the term. Correction: you have no problem misusing the term when it suits your deceptive purposes.


And how many "he said she said" levels are we going to regress to before you'll think critically about this?


As I said, and it bears repeating, I have no reason to distrust John Dehlin. I have little or no reason to trust you or Daniel Peterson. Sorry, but John has never lied to me. On the other hand, I have watched both you and Daniel deceive, so who am I going to believe here, a proven liar? Or the guy who actually has put his reputation, which is, for the record, proven to be reliable, on the line?

My critical thinking says that you came into this board lying, and that you continue to find any way you can to cloud the issue. You are a liar, a cheat, and a deceiver. If you think I don't like you, you would be right.

I withhold judgement until suitable evidence is presented. That is the difference between you and myself.


Another obvious lie. A person who is "withholding judgment" does not repeatedly call the claim "a conspiracy theory." You, as I said, are a shameless liar and a person of no integrity.

Temper, temper. Get a sense of humor.


I have a sense of humor. It just doesn't laugh off passive aggressive weasels who lie at the expense of my friends. If you are offended by that, you can shove it up your ass.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli

Post by _Kishkumen »

RayAgostini wrote:I made a "demand"? I thought I was giving an example of a GA supporting a "heretic", and wondering why it's so important to conceal the identity of this GA? If this need is so great, then perhaps this GA does not have the support of other GAs, and would be risking himself by being public on this. In any case, this doesn't from one moment suggest that this is the "direction the Church is moving in". Just a reality check.


You gave a bad example, and you should know why it is bad. I am not going to insult your intelligence by explaining to you why it is a bad example when you know perfectly well what the answer would be.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_RayAgostini

Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli

Post by _RayAgostini »

Kishkumen wrote:
You gave a bad example, and you should know why it is bad. I am not going to insult your intelligence by explaining to you why it is a bad example when you know perfectly well what the answer would be.


I confess I don't so maybe I'm not as smart as you suggest, so go ahead and enlighten me (or insult me, whichever you feel more inclined to do).
_Kishkumen
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Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli

Post by _Kishkumen »

RayAgostini wrote:I confess I don't so maybe I'm not as smart as you suggest, so go ahead and enlighten me (or insult me, whichever you feel more inclined to do).


Think it over. I am in no mood to review elementary Mormon history with someone who knows it as well or better than I do.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_RayAgostini

Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli

Post by _RayAgostini »

Kishkumen wrote:Yeah, we know Greg from his apologetic writings, and that is exactly why we believe that he did write said piece. It is entirely characteristic of his ethic to write a poison pen letter to one of his ideological foes in a journal. All you are telling us is exactly how little we should regard your judgment and character.


Perhaps you should consider another side of Greg Smith, one which actually surprised me.

Slam Dunk For Mormons: The Debate Is Over.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli

Post by _Kishkumen »

RayAgostini wrote:Perhaps you should consider another side of Greg Smith, one which actually surprised me.

Slam Dunk For Mormons: The Debate Is Over.


Sure, Ray. You know what, Daniel is a nice guy in other situations too. I don't have to approve of, applaud, encourage, or even show any sympathy for the things that he does of which I do not approve. We are all human beings. We all put our pants on one leg at a time. Some of us write Mopologetic slams and spread rumors about the fellow LDS folk we disagree with. In case you are wondering, I am not so much on board with the stuff that comes after the pants.

I still don't like his apologetics or respect his initial assessment of Will Schryver's scholarship on the Book of Abraham. The former I find offensive; the latter I find stupid.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Ray, the only real question I have for you is whether or not you think the "hit piece" was legit, and whether John had good reason to feel worried about it. Based on what you've been posting, my guess is that your answers would be "No" and "No." You seem totally unconcerned about it, which is weird considering that you're supposedly on friendly terms with him. (And do you not find it the least bit troubling that, as Rockslider pointed out, Dehlin had DCP on the podcast, only for Dan to now turn around and stab him in the back?) Instead, you're flying off on these tangents about David O. McKay, and Greg Smith's testimony on MST.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Droopy wrote:Dehlin is an apostate from the Church. He has spent many years attacking, impuginng, and damning it. D. Quinn is an apostate who has spent much of his adult life in hostility and criticism of the Church. The same is true of all of the September Six, and many others like them.


I don't think Dehlin had attacked the Church. But he certainly does not hide the issues that are out there and he lets all sides be heard.

All brought their marginalization within the Church and with respect to the main body of the membership of the Church upon themselves. All who were excommunicated brought their excommunication upon themselves of their own free volition. All left the church and then turned against it. All have reaped the whirlwinds they have sown.


So would you excommunicate a Dehlin or Brooks? You have said before that you would not. This seems a change in tune.

Apologetics is not attack (although it can be, and sometimes, of course, a good offense is the best defense) but necessary defense against the attacking wolves, who, strange as it may seem, although wolves they be, are very well practiced at playing a very different part, when the battle is joined and the exposing them for what they really are begins:


Yet the style of many LDS apologists is to attack and attack very personally.

I can tell you this Droopy, when I was deep in questioning and concerns and wondering where I would end up John Dehlin was there for me. He emailed with me. He was supportive of me. He was willing to support me no matter what direction I choose. He never encouraged me to leave. In fact he is pleased that I have found a way to stay and be active. His podcasts also introduced me to many believing LDS who are much less rigid in their approach to the Church than you.

The other person I will say who has been supportive and always willing to listen to me and even offered to meet with me one on one when in Provo was Dan Peterson.

Both John and Dan have been very gracious. Both have influenced me to not jump and run and thus I have reached a point where at least currently I can be LDS and make is work.

Can you say the same Droopy? How do you treat those who are struggling?
_Kishkumen
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Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli

Post by _Kishkumen »

Yes, I too am curious as to why these guys deserve so much sympathy regarding their various "critiques" of fellow members of the LDS Church, whom they treat so shabbily in their review journal?

John Dehlin has gone out of his way to do the things that apologists like Nate Oman have complained were not happening in the past: he let the apologists speak for themselves in their own words on Mormon Stories. He has had several apologist guests and they have been treated pretty damn fairly. And yet here we see what kind of thanks he gets from them.

Oh, but I guess that's all OK because John does not think and believe exactly the way they do, which is the only "true" way to be LDS. All others ought to just save them the trouble and get out. But that would probably leave them looking for someone else to pick on, so maybe it is for the best that people like John Dehlin tough it out.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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