RFM v. Midnight Mormons—Debate

[honorentheos]

Perhaps the risk in the current age of Exmormon Reddit is the flippant ease of rejection Mormon beliefs have achieved online. Anti-establishment "BULLS EYE!" like the exposed flaws of the leadership leave a false impression that one is walking away from one community to join another. But that's not accurate. All the Exmormon subreddit community shares for an identity is attacks in Mormonism. It not even a waypoint let alone a destination yet if one makes such the substance of post-Mormonism one is losing a bigger argument with human nature and basic human needs.

I think the only bit I’d add to your observation is the subreddit exists to affirm people, most like in the zeitgeist of the day of ‘extreme acceptance’, probably as a result of age and being raised in a narrow moral paradigm. One of the interesting things about the subreddit is if you fall outside of its implicit morality or ‘exmo orthopraxy’, you’ll be downvoted with the gusto of a Torquemadian inquisition. No debate allowed.

- Doc

That's a valuable observation. I think it helps illuminate the narrative strategy MM showed behind their efforts, too. The disenfranchised among those who have found leaving easy only to not find the next step on a new journey are an audience uniquely modern. This is the first generation finding leaving to be easy.

I'm reminded of the movie The Devil's Playground about Amish youth experiencing Rummspringa. The Amish believe that baptism should be a choice and their equivalent of the age of accountability is 16. Many youth, on turning 16, don't choose baptism but instead make a go outside of their community. Because the Amish also don't continue their education past 8th grade, most of these kids hold full-time jobs as well. Being 16 and making what seems like a lot of money ends up fueling a period of wild living and extreme freedom. But within a few years most of the youth inevitably end up either baptized and living Amish or in pretty dark places. Only one young lady in the film moved on to earn a high school degree and go to college and that was with the help of a Christian group where she found new community.

The alternative to Mormon belief is a paradigm shift in how one engages the world, with knowledge, with communities of ones choice or even making. The need isn't to provide an alternative communtiy, but an understanding that the tools and agency that comes with this shift in thinking is a new world.

It also sounds like too many in the Exmormon subreddit community only know how to emulate their former Mormon organization.

[Alphus and Omegus]

Yes

Nicely done.

Thanks!

[Alphus and Omegus]

I agree with this point very much. Mormon activists, like those of other fundamentalist religious groups, have shifted their tactics to be less about trying to "prove" their very weak truth claims. They realized that a lot of people do not actually care about facts. Instead, they care about identity and group belonging. That is the reason they attacked RFM for not providing an alternative.

Overall, he did very well, but I do think that RFM should have called out his opponents for abandoning facts and retreating to identity politics. The central conflict in society now is between people who believe facts should be most important and those who believe feelings should be most important.

MMs explicitly said repeatedly that they don't think facts matter. That was an unused weak spot because a lot of people whose epistemologies are feeling-based wrongly think that they are fact-based. Finding that cognitive dissonance and using it was a missed opportunity.

Nah. Attacking Mormon epistemology will have a very limited appeal. Look, if you accept that there is a spiritual side of life that science does not deal with, then the attack on Mormon epistemology won't get anywhere with you. The best defense Christians of different stripes have--and it is very effective--is that materialists are only open to part of the entirety of reality. They will always have a place to hide.

The truth of the matter is that the LDS Church is weakest in what it offers its members. It is really a crappy organization. Look at what Pete Buttigieg does with religious opponents. He proudly affirms his religiosity as someone who sees differently on important issues. That is a better way to go. Of course, I heartily disagree with the secularists on this board who lean in the direction of separating people from their religion. I think it is both a quixotic task and a waste of time. I don't even think separating people from the LDS Church is a good goal.

RFM is in a tough position. He is there to appeal to those people who are unconventionally Mormon or on the way out of Mormonism. A few LDS people who are strong and independent will gain a lot from listening to him too. But he is after an entirely different demographic from the one that finds the Midnight Morons appealing. Their fans are active but causal LDS. They participate. They like it. They like what the Church stands for, but they hardly crack a book and don't really care to dig deeply into things. I tend not to agree with them, have little in common with them, and dislike their politics, but I usually wouldn't waste my time having a beef with such people.

RFM, on the other hand, is a truly interesting and brilliant person. I would say that he has done more than just about anyone on this board to contribute to actual Mormon Studies, and he continues to think deeply about Mormonism. His fans are people who are discovering Mormonism anew as they leave Mormonism. They are thirsting for new ways to think about it, and he can give that to them like few other podcast personalities can.

I won't speak for consig, but it seems he's just very interested in discussing Mormon doctrine and history. He's not trying to get people to leave, just to get them to consider the full spectrum of information about the religion.

Talking about neoapologetics as being about identity rather than logic is a facet that needs to be considered.

In some sense, I think it's a good trend because viewing Mormonism as one of many flawed traditions that could be improved is a good thing. I was glad to see that the MMs support equality for lesbians and gays, though they don't all seem to feel the same about trans people.

Being able to move beyond religion's fact claims can be both negative and positive. Most progressive Protestant and Catholic faith traditions are more about moral philosophy and community service rather than doomed apologetics. LDS Mormons should do the same, just as the Community of Christ has.

[Res Ipsa]

I think the only bit I’d add to your observation is the subreddit exists to affirm people, most like in the zeitgeist of the day of ‘extreme acceptance’, probably as a result of age and being raised in a narrow moral paradigm. One of the interesting things about the subreddit is if you fall outside of its implicit morality or ‘exmo orthopraxy’, you’ll be downvoted with the gusto of a Torquemadian inquisition. No debate allowed.

- Doc

That's a valuable observation. I think it helps illuminate the narrative strategy MM showed behind their efforts, too. The disenfranchised among those who have found leaving easy only to not find the next step on a new journey are an audience uniquely modern. This is the first generation finding leaving to be easy.

I'm reminded of the movie The Devil's Playground about Amish youth experiencing Rummspringa. The Amish believe that baptism should be a choice and their equivalent of the age of accountability is 16. Many youth, on turning 16, don't choose baptism but instead make a go outside of their community. Because the Amish also don't continue their education past 8th grade, most of these kids hold full-time jobs as well. Being 16 and making what seems like a lot of money ends up fueling a period of wild living and extreme freedom. But within a few years most of the youth inevitably end up either baptized and living Amish or in pretty dark places. Only one young lady in the film moved on to earn a high school degree and go to college and that was with the help of a Christian group where she found new community.

The alternative to Mormon belief is a paradigm shift in how one engages the world, with knowledge, with communities of ones choice or even making. The need isn't to provide an alternative communtiy, but an understanding that the tools and agency that comes with this shift in thinking is a new world.

It also sounds like too many in the Exmormon subreddit community only know how to emulate their former Mormon organization.

Well said, Honor. I’ve been pretty ambivalent about the notion of ex-Mormon communities s anything other than temporary way stations between Mormonism and what comes next. Communities form because of shared values and interests. I hung out with former Mormons for a while — even went to the first ex-Mormon conference out on by Recovery from Mormonism folks in Las Vegas years ago. But I soon found that building a community around something I’d been but rejected had little appeal. Getting together with other former Mormons just felt like being mired in the past. Eventually I went in search of others with common interests, and they have formed my communities ever since.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Nicely done.

Thanks!

I just read the article, and man, did you nail it. I don’t have anything to add, but if you start a thread I think there could be some good talking points to build on that are in your piece.

- Doc

[Alphus and Omegus]

Thanks!

I just read the article, and man, did you nail it. I don’t have anything to add, but if you start a thread I think there could be some good talking points to build on that are in your piece.

- Doc

Thanks! Here is the thread from earlier ICYMI: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=850

[dastardly stem]

I think Consig did a fine job.

He made a few good points. And that certainly matters.

It's tough to deal with emotional kids in a public "debate."

He should have pointed out after, I think the first question, that their answers did not contain one rational, evidential reason to believe. And then forward, as I heard it, he never pointed out they didn't supply a reason, at least not a reason sufficient to accept their position.

Consig certainly came off as the adult in the room compared to Kwaku and the others.

For the most part, I agree. Kwaku was by far the most childish person involved.

Kwaku spouting about Consig's professional life was a childish tactic indeed. Sure, he could have made better attempts to control the direction, but, perhaps that is a function of the format.

I was no fan of the format. There was no debate. I finally got to the end and it got worse for rfms position. I don't really know what position he was arguing for. The church is not true? Or Some elements in its history and teaching are problematic? Not sure.

In the debates I've watched in the past, each side gets to pose questions to the other side. That would have been the area to bring the "debate" back from appeals to emotion and fear to can Mormonism's claims be defended or not. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Kwaku refused to be cross-examined by a seasoned trial attorney.

Likely. They all agreed to this format, so it's on rfm, as I see it. If he wanted to really hold their feet to the fire, it was his responsibility to do so. He didn't. He got upset a few times with them about unrelated stuff. It didn't work well, overall, but some good points were made.

[Kishkumen]

It is here where I believe you are wrong. Mormonism is an elementary school posturing as doctorate program for the soul and for spiritual community. Having a meaningful conversation about the failings of Mormonism must, out of necessity, address the spiritual famine it claims is a feast. And when the opposite of participation fails to lead to enrichment of a kind that contrasts with that famine but instead validates the claims it is a feast by contrast then one isn't engaging in critique of Mormonism but rather snipping at the fringe of things one would rather see align more with ones own preferences.

Is the spiritual feast to be found in community, in ritual participation as knowing Mormon who has abandoned the literal in favor of the myth? Where is that debated? Is it to be found in replacing the male leadership with a more diverse priesthood? What makes that a source of richness and how does it maintain the identity of Mormonism in a way that is meeting th wide range of needs of people rather than just fulfilling a niche wish of a handful of people to whom this appeals? Critique is easy. It can't be all that is put in offers though. Else the critique is simply snark and potshots at inevitable imperfections in any human endeavor.

I don’t think it is a matter of me being wrong but of being realistic. Critique is important, but it isn’t everything. RFM is a podcaster, not a philosopher, a theologian, or an ecclesiologist. The Midnight Mormons aren’t even competent apologists, much less people with any aim at fixing a problem. They can’t be the latter because they are not allowed to be. Honestly, I don’t know what you expect that you have been disappointed in here. Go come up with your own answers and by all means share them with us. Until then it sounds like you are merely doing exactly what you bemoan.

[pistolero]

The Midnight Morons entered looking like morons and left looking like morons, although Cardon did somewhat better in not looking like a complete lunatic than I thought he would. I saw some real genuine humanity, in fact, from Brad and Cardon, which was somewhat of a relief, and did more to reflect well on the LDS Church than any of their lame arguments, whereas Quackoo is just really awful. An obviously shallow charm that does a poor job of hiding his lack of integrity and poor character.

Brad has always been the more decent of the trio. Every time I see them in action I give a silent prayer that Brad will see the light, not of Mormonism, but of MM. I also agree that there were moments when Cardon came across much better than the douche on MM, but it was variable, he was blowing hot and cold all night.

Kwaku... no comment.

[Kishkumen]

Good read, pistolero. I had set the bar pretty low for Cardon. He did better than I thought he would, but that isn’t saying a whole lot. The underlying reality is visible with the vests. You can stop the debate as soon as you see them. No sense in debating clowns.