I actually do believe that people who mock God and those He loves have and do reap disaster at times. And I believe this happens, not so much to punish the evildoers, but as a merciful warning to those left behind to repent. Some people will never get it, take the hint, or repent. And they will drag everyone else down with them. But when the followers see that their leaders suffer consequences for their actions, such will often come to a realization that indeed eventually leads to their salvation. They get back on the right path.
It is already well established that you believe a lot of irrational things. You have merely just reconfirmed that.
Are you one of those hateful, Christian Reconstructionists who would advocate a return to strict implementation of the Mosaic law as described in the Old Testament, including the execution of non-believers, people who "violate the Sabbath", adulterers, etc.?
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
I actually do believe that people who mock God and those He loves have and do reap disaster at times. And I believe this happens, not so much to punish the evildoers, but as a merciful warning to those left behind to repent. Some people will never get it, take the hint, or repent. And they will drag everyone else down with them. But when the followers see that their leaders suffer consequences for their actions, such will often come to a realization that indeed eventually leads to their salvation. They get back on the right path.
It is already well established that you believe a lot of irrational things. You have merely just reconfirmed that.
Are you one of those hateful, Christian Reconstructionists who would advocate a return to strict implementation of the Mosaic law as described in the Old Testament, including the execution of non-believers, people who "violate the Sabbath", adulterers, etc.?
We don't live under the LAW. Christ frees us; however, there are still earthy issues that occur as a result of not obeying the 10 Commandments. Life becomes cheap. The family and motherhood become disrespected. People end up working 7 days a week to make ends meet. The jails overflow. People lose touch with each other and don't know their neighbors.
2 Kings 3 Ahab’s son Joram began to rule over Israel in the 18th year of King Jehoshaphat’s reign in Judah. He reigned in Samaria 12 years. He did what was evil but not to the same extent as his parents. He tore down the sacred pillar of Baal that his father had set up. Nevertheless, he continued in the sins that Jeroboam son of Nebat had committed and led the people of Israel to commit.
King Mesha of Moab breed sheep. He used to pay the king of Israel an annual tribute of 100,000 lambs and the wool of 100,000 rams. But after Ahab’s death, the king of Moab rebelled against the king of Israel. King Joram promptly mustered the army of Israel and marched from Samaria. On the way, he sent this message to King Jehoshaphat of Judah: “The king of Moab has rebelled against me. Will you join me in battle against him?”
Jehoshaphat replied, “Why, of course! You and I are as one. My troops are your troops, and my horses are your horses.” Jehoshaphat asked, “What route will we take?” “We will attack from the wilderness of Edom,” Joram replied. Edom's king and his troops joined them, and all three armies traveled along a roundabout route through the wilderness for seven days. But there was no water for the men or their animals. “What should we do?” the king of Israel cried out. “The Lord has brought the three of us here to let the king of Moab defeat us.”
King Jehoshaphat of Judah asked, “Is there no prophet of the Lord with us? If there is, we can ask the Lord what to do through him.” One of King Joram’s officers replied, “Elisha son of Shaphat is here. He used to be Elijah’s personal assistant.” Jehoshaphat agreed... So the king of Israel, King Jehoshaphat of Judah, and the king of Edom went to consult with Elisha.
“Why are you coming to me?” Elisha asked the king of Israel. “Go to the pagan prophets of your father and mother!” King Joram of Israel said, “No! For it was the Lord who called us three kings here—only to be defeated by the king of Moab!” Elisha replied, “As surely as the Lord Almighty lives, whom I serve, I wouldn’t even bother with you except for my respect for King Jehoshaphat of Judah. Now bring me someone who can play the harp.”
While the harp was being played, the power of the Lord came upon Elisha, and he said, “This is what the Lord says: This dry valley will be filled with pools of water! You will see neither wind nor rain, says the Lord, but this valley will be filled with water. You will have plenty for yourselves and your cattle and other animals. But this is only a simple thing for the Lord, for he will make you victorious over the army of Moab! You will conquer the best of their towns, even the fortified ones. You will cut down all their good trees, stop up all their springs, and ruin all their good land with stones.”
The next day at about the time when the morning sacrifice was offered, water suddenly appeared! It was flowing from the direction of Edom, and soon there was water everywhere. Meanwhile, when the people of Moab heard about the three armies marching against them, they mobilized every man who was old enough to strap on a sword, and they stationed themselves along their border. But when they got up the next morning, the sun was shining across the water, making it appear red to the Moabites—like blood. “It’s blood!” the Moabites exclaimed. “The three armies must have attacked and killed each other! Let’s go, men of Moab, and collect the plunder!”
When the Moabites arrived at the Israelite camp, the army of Israel rushed out and attacked them until they turned and ran. The army of Israel chased them into the land of Moab, destroying everything as they went. They destroyed the towns, covered their good land with stones, stopped up all the springs, and cut down all the good trees. Finally, only Kir-hareseth and its stone walls were left, but men with slings surrounded and attacked it. When the king of Moab saw that he was losing the battle, he led 700 of his swordsmen in a desperate attempt to break through the enemy lines near the king of Edom, but they failed.
The king of Moab took his oldest son, who would have been the next king, and sacrificed him as a burnt offering on the wall. So there was great anger against Israel, and the Israelites withdrew and returned to their own land.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And Jehoram son of Ahab hath reigned over Israel, in Samaria, in the eighteenth year of Jehoshaphat king of Judah, and he reigneth twelve years,
2 and doth the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah, only not like his father, and like his mother, and he turneth aside the standing-pillar of Baal that his father made;
3 only to the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat that he caused Israel to sin he hath cleaved, he hath not turned aside from it.
4 And Mesha king of Moab was a sheep-master, and he rendered to the king of Israel a hundred thousand lambs, and a hundred thousand rams, [with] wool,
5 and it cometh to pass at the death of Ahab, that the king of Moab transgresseth against the king of Israel.
6 And king Jehoram goeth out in that day from Samaria, and inspecteth all Israel,
7 and goeth and sendeth unto Jehoshaphat king of Judah, saying, `The king of Moab hath transgressed against me; dost thou go with me unto Moab for battle?' and he saith, `I go up, as I, so thou; as my people, so thy people; as my horses, so thy horses.
8 And he saith, `Where [is] this -- the way we go up?' and he saith, `The way of the wilderness of Edom.'
9 And the king of Israel goeth, and the king of Judah, and the king of Edom, and they turn round the way seven days, and there hath been no water for the camp, and for the cattle that [are] at their feet,
10 and the king of Israel saith, `Alas, for Jehovah hath called for these three kings, to give them into the hand of Moab.'
11 And Jehoshaphat saith, `Is there not here a prophet of Jehovah, and we seek Jehovah by him?' And one of the servants of the king of Israel answereth and saith, `Here [is] Elisha son of Shaphat, who poured water on the hands of Elijah.'
12 And Jehoshaphat saith, `The word of Jehovah is with him;' and go down unto him do the king of Israel, and Jehoshaphat, and the king of Edom.
13 And Elisha saith unto the king of Israel, `What -- to me and to thee? go unto the prophets of thy father, and unto the prophets of thy mother;' and the king of Israel saith to him, `Nay, for Jehovah hath called for these three kings to give them into the hand of Moab.'
14 And Elisha saith, `Jehovah of Hosts liveth, before whom I have stood; for unless the face of Jehoshaphat king of Judah I am lifting up, I do not look unto thee, nor see thee;
15 and now, bring to me a minstrel; and it hath been, at the playing of the minstrel, that the hand of Jehovah is on him,
16 and he saith, `Thus said Jehovah, Make this valley ditches -- ditches;
17 for thus said Jehovah, Ye do not see wind, nor do ye see rain, and that valley is full of water, and ye have drunk -- ye, and your cattle, and your beasts.
18 `And this hath been light in the eyes of Jehovah, and he hath given Moab into your hand,
19 and ye have smitten every fenced city, and every choice city, and every good tree ye cause to fall, and all fountains of waters ye stop, and every good portion ye mar with stones.'
20 And it cometh to pass in the morning, at the ascending of the [morning]-present, that lo, waters are coming in from the way of Edom, and the land is filled with the waters,
21 and all Moab have heard that the kings have come up to fight against them, and they are called together, from every one girding on a girdle and upward, and they stand by the border.
22 And they rise early in the morning, and the sun hath shone on the waters, and the Moabites see, from over-against, the waters red as blood,
23 and say, `Blood this [is]; the kings have been surely destroyed, and they smite each his neighbour; and now for spoil, Moab!'
24 And they come in unto the camp of Israel, and the Israelites rise, and smite the Moabites, and they flee from their face; and they enter into Moab, so as to smite Moab,
25 and the cities they break down, and [on] every good portion they cast each his stone, and have filled it, and every fountain of water they stop, and every good tree they cause to fall -- till one had left its stones in Kir-Haraseth, and the slingers go round and smite it.
26 And the king of Moab seeth that the battle has been too strong for him, and he taketh with him seven hundred men, drawing sword, to cleave through unto the king of Edom, and they have not been able,
27 and he taketh his son, the first-born who reigneth in his stead, and causeth him to ascend -- a burnt-offering on the wall, and there is great wrath against Israel, and they journey from off him, and turn back to the land.
LittleNipper wrote:27 and he taketh his son, the first-born who reigneth in his stead, and causeth him to ascend -- a burnt-offering on the wall, and there is great wrath against Israel, and they journey from off him, and turn back to the land.
What's interesting about this verse is that the word for that "great wrath" refers to divine wrath. There is only one rational interpretation of the source of that divine wrath. The burnt offering was successful in facilitating the Moabite deity's aid, and that deity chased off YHWH's forces. Since warfare was thought to be determined by divine competition, the author here is forced to tacitly acknowledge that YHWH was defeated by Chemosh. He tries to hedge his bets, however, by pretending the Israelite/Edomite/Judahite forces' smiting of the wall as in some sense a fulfillment of the prophecy. For more, see the following:
B. O. Long, “2 Kings III and Genres of Prophetic Narrative,” VT 23.3 (1973): 337–48; B. Margalit, “Why King Mesha of Moab Sacrificed His Oldest Son,” BAR 12.6 (1986): 62–63; M. Cogan and H. Tadmor, II Kings: A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1988), 40–52; J. B. Burns, “Why Did the Besieging Army Withdraw? (II Reg 3,27),” ZAW 102.2 (1990): 187–94; J. D. Levenson, The Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son: The Transformation of Child Sacrifice in Judaism and Christianity (Binghamton, N.Y.: Vail-Ballou Press, 1993), 14–17; Müller, “Chemosh כמושׁ ,” DDD 189; Stavrakopoulou, King Manasseh and Child Sacrifice, 176–77; R. Westbrook, “Elisha’s True Prophecy in 2 Kings 3,” JBL 124.3 (2005): 530–32; Smith, God in Translation, 116–18; S. Morschauser, “A ‘Diagnostic’ Note on the ‘Great Wrath upon Israel’ in 2 Kings 3:27,” JBL 129.2 (2010): 299–302; T. Stark, The Human Faces of God: What Scripture Reveals When It Gets God Wrong (and Why Inerrancy Tries to Hide It) (Eugene, Ore.: Wipf & Stock, 2011), 91–92.
LittleNipper wrote:27 and he taketh his son, the first-born who reigneth in his stead, and causeth him to ascend -- a burnt-offering on the wall, and there is great wrath against Israel, and they journey from off him, and turn back to the land.
What's interesting about this verse is that the word for that "great wrath" refers to divine wrath. There is only one rational interpretation of the source of that divine wrath. The burnt offering was successful in facilitating the Moabite deity's aid, and that deity chased off YHWH's forces. Since warfare was thought to be determined by divine competition, the author here is forced to tacitly acknowledge that YHWH was defeated by Chemosh. He tries to hedge his bets, however, by pretending the Israelite/Edomite/Judahite forces' smiting of the wall as in some sense a fulfillment of the prophecy. For more, see the following:
B. O. Long, “2 Kings III and Genres of Prophetic Narrative,” VT 23.3 (1973): 337–48; B. Margalit, “Why King Mesha of Moab Sacrificed His Oldest Son,” BAR 12.6 (1986): 62–63; M. Cogan and H. Tadmor, II Kings: A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1988), 40–52; J. B. Burns, “Why Did the Besieging Army Withdraw? (II Reg 3,27),” ZAW 102.2 (1990): 187–94; J. D. Levenson, The Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son: The Transformation of Child Sacrifice in Judaism and Christianity (Binghamton, N.Y.: Vail-Ballou Press, 1993), 14–17; Müller, “Chemosh כמושׁ ,” DDD 189; Stavrakopoulou, King Manasseh and Child Sacrifice, 176–77; R. Westbrook, “Elisha’s True Prophecy in 2 Kings 3,” JBL 124.3 (2005): 530–32; Smith, God in Translation, 116–18; S. Morschauser, “A ‘Diagnostic’ Note on the ‘Great Wrath upon Israel’ in 2 Kings 3:27,” JBL 129.2 (2010): 299–302; T. Stark, The Human Faces of God: What Scripture Reveals When It Gets God Wrong (and Why Inerrancy Tries to Hide It) (Eugene, Ore.: Wipf & Stock, 2011), 91–92.
Then he took his oldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering on the wall. And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.
It was customary in various heathen nations, to offer {human} sacrifices, and even their own {children.} This was frequent among the Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Scythians, Gauls, Africans, and others; and was the natural fruit of a religious system which had for the objects of its worship cruel and merciless divinities. The king of Moab, in this case, sacrificed his son to obtain the favour of Chemosh {his god}, who, being a devil, delighted in blood and murder, and the destruction of mankind. The dearer any thing was to them, the more acceptable those idolaters thought the sacrifice, and therefore burnt their children in the fire to their honor.
Israel was in Moab and not in their own country. The citizens of the area were understandably upset that the war had forced the hand of Moab to sacrifice his own son and they became united against Israel. Israel didn't want the land. They just wanted tribute. So, they simply returned to their own country. False God's offer no spiritual rewards --- they don't exist. It is enough that the next king of Moan was dead.
LittleNipper wrote:Then he took his oldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering on the wall. And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.
It was customary in various heathen nations, to offer {human} sacrifices, and even their own {children.}
It was customary in Israel, too. In fact, it's one of the commandments in Exodus:
Exod 22:29: Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.
V. 30 says, "Likewise shalt thou do with thine oxen, and with thy sheep: seven days it shall be with his dam; on the eighth day thou shalt give it me." The sense is clearly that Israel's firstborn are supposed to be offered as a burnt offering. There is nothing in this section of laws that qualifies that commandment in any way whatsoever, although way down the road in Exod 34:20 it commands Israel to redeem all their firstborn sons. In essence, they are owed to God, but they are avoiding sacrificing them by offering a substitute. This is a much later commandment, though, and we have biblical verification that Exod 22:29 was the law for some time. Ezek 20:25-26 has God explain that he intentionally gave Israel bad commandments, forcing them to sacrifice their firstborn children. That's Ezekiel's way of condemning Exod 22:29.
Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.
So God himself commanded Israel to sacrifice their firstborn children, and it wasn't until a while later that someone came up with the idea to add a commandment demanding they redeem those children. For more on child sacrifice in ancient Israel, see the following:
Francesca Stavrakopoulou, King Manasseh and Child Sacrifice: Biblical Distortions of Historical Realities (Berlin: De Gruyter, 2004); Jon D. Levenson, The Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son: The Transformation of Child Sacrifice in Judaism and Christianity (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1993); Ernst Axel Knauf,“The Glorious Days of Manasseh”, in Good Kings and Bad Kings. The Kingdom of Judah in the Seventh Century BCE (London: T&T Clark, 2007), 164–88; Łukasz Niesiołowski-Spanò, "Child Sacrifice in Seventh-Century Judah and the Origins of Passover," Przegl Ad Humanistyczny 2 (2013): 161-70.
LittleNipper wrote:This was frequent among the Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Scythians, Gauls, Africans, and others; and was the natural fruit of a religious system which had for the objects of its worship cruel and merciless divinities. The king of Moab, in this case, sacrificed his son to obtain the favour of Chemosh {his god}, who, being a devil, delighted in blood and murder, and the destruction of mankind. The dearer any thing was to them, the more acceptable those idolaters thought the sacrifice, and therefore burnt their children in the fire to their honor.
Israel was in Moab and not in their own country. The citizens of the area were understandably upset that the war had forced the hand of Moab to sacrifice his own son and they became united against Israel. Israel didn't want the land. They just wanted tribute. So, they simply returned to their own country. False God's offer no spiritual rewards --- they don't exist. It is enough that the next king of Moan was dead.
And this completely ignores what the text says. No citizens of the area are mentioned anywhere, and it simply defies logic to insist there were non-military bystanders sitting around watching the city about to fall until they decided to just join in and route the Israelites. Additionally, Israel did not just up and leave. The verbs used there to refer to their leaving are the exact same verbs used to describe Sennacherib's departure from Jerusalem after an angel killed thousands upon thousands of his men. It does refer to just packing up and leaving, it refers to retreat. Lastly, the word ketseph does not refer to the wrath of the citizenry. It is used to refer to divine wrath. In virtually every single occurrence of the word it refer to YHWH's wrath against Israel. Two other occurrences refer generically to wrath, such as the metaphorical reference to sea foam being whipped up by the wrath of the ocean. It never, ever refers to specific human wrath.
The wrath simply must refer to divine wrath if the Hebrew language is to be taken into account at all, and if you're not taking the actual language of the text into account, then you're not doing interpretation, you're doing divination. There is only legitimate way to interpret the text, and simply put, it is that Chemosh routed the Israelites in response to the king's sacrifice of his son. Go looking around on google all you want for other answers, but you will never find anything that is not chock full of ignorant dogmatism. The available evidence simply allows for no other explanation.
LittleNipper wrote:Then he took his oldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering on the wall. And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.
It was customary in various heathen nations, to offer {human} sacrifices, and even their own {children.}
It was customary in Israel, too. In fact, it's one of the commandments in Exodus:
Exod 22:29: Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.
V. 30 says, "Likewise shalt thou do with thine oxen, and with thy sheep: seven days it shall be with his dam; on the eighth day thou shalt give it me." The sense is clearly that Israel's firstborn are supposed to be offered as a burnt offering. There is nothing in this section of laws that qualifies that commandment in any way whatsoever, although way down the road in Exod 34:20 it commands Israel to redeem all their firstborn sons. In essence, they are owed to God, but they are avoiding sacrificing them by offering a substitute. This is a much later commandment, though, and we have biblical verification that Exod 22:29 was the law for some time. Ezek 20:25-26 has God explain that he intentionally gave Israel bad commandments, forcing them to sacrifice their firstborn children. That's Ezekiel's way of condemning Exod 22:29.
Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.
So God himself commanded Israel to sacrifice their firstborn children, and it wasn't until a while later that someone came up with the idea to add a commandment demanding they redeem those children. For more on child sacrifice in ancient Israel, see the following:
Francesca Stavrakopoulou, King Manasseh and Child Sacrifice: Biblical Distortions of Historical Realities (Berlin: De Gruyter, 2004); Jon D. Levenson, The Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son: The Transformation of Child Sacrifice in Judaism and Christianity (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1993); Ernst Axel Knauf,“The Glorious Days of Manasseh”, in Good Kings and Bad Kings. The Kingdom of Judah in the Seventh Century BCE (London: T&T Clark, 2007), 164–88; Łukasz Niesiołowski-Spanò, "Child Sacrifice in Seventh-Century Judah and the Origins of Passover," Przegl Ad Humanistyczny 2 (2013): 161-70.
LittleNipper wrote:This was frequent among the Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Scythians, Gauls, Africans, and others; and was the natural fruit of a religious system which had for the objects of its worship cruel and merciless divinities. The king of Moab, in this case, sacrificed his son to obtain the favour of Chemosh {his god}, who, being a devil, delighted in blood and murder, and the destruction of mankind. The dearer any thing was to them, the more acceptable those idolaters thought the sacrifice, and therefore burnt their children in the fire to their honor.
Israel was in Moab and not in their own country. The citizens of the area were understandably upset that the war had forced the hand of Moab to sacrifice his own son and they became united against Israel. Israel didn't want the land. They just wanted tribute. So, they simply returned to their own country. False God's offer no spiritual rewards --- they don't exist. It is enough that the next king of Moan was dead.
And this completely ignores what the text says. No citizens of the area are mentioned anywhere, and it simply defies logic to insist there were non-military bystanders sitting around watching the city about to fall until they decided to just join in and route the Israelites. Additionally, Israel did not just up and leave. The verbs used there to refer to their leaving are the exact same verbs used to describe Sennacherib's departure from Jerusalem after an angel killed thousands upon thousands of his men. It does refer to just packing up and leaving, it refers to retreat. Lastly, the word ketseph does not refer to the wrath of the citizenry. It is used to refer to divine wrath. In virtually every single occurrence of the word it refer to YHWH's wrath against Israel. Two other occurrences refer generically to wrath, such as the metaphorical reference to sea foam being whipped up by the wrath of the ocean. It never, ever refers to specific human wrath.
The wrath simply must refer to divine wrath if the Hebrew language is to be taken into account at all, and if you're not taking the actual language of the text into account, then you're not doing interpretation, you're doing divination. There is only legitimate way to interpret the text, and simply put, it is that Chemosh routed the Israelites in response to the king's sacrifice of his son. Go looking around on google all you want for other answers, but you will never find anything that is not chock full of ignorant dogmatism. The available evidence simply allows for no other explanation.
Chemosh is not real. There is only one God and he exists in the form of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. What you say is not cock full of ignorant dogmatism? What happened to the USA in Vietnam? It seems to me that such a war is not what Israel wanted to get involved in. They didn't fully trust God. The very same can be said of the USA. The difference is that the USA once felt that it couldn't be defeated because it was so superior to the little nothing nations ---- which has been shown to be totally a fallacy. Israel was a divided country and lost heart when they dumped the only true God the kings didn't even know how to contact God except for a prophet that seems to have been an afterthought. Read the chapter again. My God isn't bigger than your god. My God is the only God. This is all God will accept. He doesn't want most or what is left. He demands full recognition. I don't see you as willing to accept this point.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
LittleNipper wrote:There is only one God and he exists in the form of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. What you say is not cock full of ignorant dogmatism?
No, it's a methodologically sound conclusion drawn from an informed interpretation of the available evidence.
LittleNipper wrote:What happened to the USA in Vietnam? It seems to me that such a war is not what Israel wanted to get involved in. They didn't fully trust God. The very same can be said of the USA. The difference is that the USA once felt that it couldn't be defeated because it was so superior to the little nothing nations ---- which has been shown to be totally a fallacy. Israel was a divided country and lost heart when they dumped the only true God.
This could not be any more irrelevant. We're talking about what 2 Kgs 3:27 says. You said you wanted to talk about what the Bible says. Well, I've shared what the Bible says, and you want to talk about the Vietnam War? If you are unable to speak about what the Bible says, then stop this charade.
LittleNipper wrote:There is only one God and he exists in the form of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. What you say is not cock full of ignorant dogmatism?
No, it's a methodologically sound conclusion drawn from an informed interpretation of the available evidence.
LittleNipper wrote:What happened to the USA in Vietnam? It seems to me that such a war is not what Israel wanted to get involved in. They didn't fully trust God. The very same can be said of the USA. The difference is that the USA once felt that it couldn't be defeated because it was so superior to the little nothing nations ---- which has been shown to be totally a fallacy. Israel was a divided country and lost heart when they dumped the only true God.
This could not be any more irrelevant. We're talking about what 2 Kgs 3:27 says. You said you wanted to talk about what the Bible says. Well, I've shared what the Bible says, and you want to talk about the Vietnam War? If you are unable to speak about what the Bible says, then stop this charade.
You are not a Christian. You do not accept Christ as the one and only true God. Anyone who even imagines that Chemosh is real, cannot have a grasp of an absolute almighty Creator Lord over all. You need to go visit Dallas Theological Seminary. The fact is Israel was fast becoming a heathen nation --- as is the USA. The handwriting of what happens to such nations is clearly revealed again and again in God 's Holy Word. And this appears as something beyond your concern.
Completely false. I may not be the brand of Christian you like, but I absolutely am a Christian.
LittleNipper wrote:You do not accept Christ as the one and only true God.
And that has nothing to do with being a Christian, at least according to what the Bible says.
LittleNipper wrote:Anyone who even imagines that Chemosh is real, cannot have a grasp of an absolute almighty Creator Lord over all.
I never said Chemosh was real. I've already told you this.
LittleNipper wrote:You need to go visit Dallas Theological Seminary.
Ha!
LittleNipper wrote:The fact is Israel was fast becoming a heathen nation --- as is the USA. The handwriting of what happens to such nations is clearly revealed again and again in God 's Holy Word. And this appears as something beyond your concern.
This is absolutely irrelevant. We're talking about what the Bible says, aren't we? You were the one who said that's what you wanted to talk about, and yet you immediately abandoned that campaign.