Book of Mormon geography

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_Buffalo
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Re: Book of Mormon geography

Post by _Buffalo »

Hey Brandt, before I respond to anything, I'd just like to say, thanks for stopping in!
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Brant Gardner
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Re: Book of Mormon geography

Post by _Brant Gardner »

Samantabhadra wrote:Mr. Gardner, first of all I want to second Blixa's observation that
Let's accept for argument's sake that curelom and cummom denote real animals that really existed at some (unknown) point in time. Why would the translation employ one methodology for some animals, and another methodology for other animals?

Cogent question. I'll give you the quick answer as to how I think the translation occurred and leave it understood that there is a lot of the supporting evidence that we can't cover here.

I see the meaning of the text, at a pre-word level, given to Joseph. He then turned that into English using his own vocabulary, understanding, and experience. Stephen Pinker coined the term mentalese to describe language prior to encoding in vocabulary and syntax. My hypothesis is based on some linguistic theory for language generation.

There is a different process and reason for what Joseph "read" when he stared at the stone in the hat, but that is not germane to your question.

Names and labels are two different mental categories. We use nouns as an identification of a set, but a name is a specific identifier. As such, names are problematic in translation. In the data for the Book of Mormon, names appear to function differently than other nouns, and I would expect them to. In this case, the mentalese communicated some nouns as labels, but the cureloms and cummons were unknown to the plate text writers, hence they are communicated as names rather than as nouns. So, while it appears that there is a different translation, there really isn't. It is the same process with the normal division between noun and name.

Are you asserting that curelom and cummom are phonetic renditions of Nephite words?

Jaredite, not Nephite.
_Brant Gardner
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Re: Book of Mormon geography

Post by _Brant Gardner »

Jaybear wrote:
Brant Gardner wrote:But I would like to walk back the question. Do you have any evidence that Joseph Smith PURPORTED to translate the book in some manner other than dictating words that appeared on his stone, while his face was buried in his hat?

Why do you think I don't accept this description? I do.

In fairness, by asking the question this way, I am trying to confirm my suspicion that your "evidence" for a loose translation is more in the nature of a conclusion driven by an assumption that the Book of Mormon was in fact a translation of an ancient manuscript.

There is no way to intelligently discuss how a translation was made without positing that it was a translation. My introduction to the book makes that assumption clear. Obviously that begs a very big question, but answering whether it was a translation is a very different question.

So, yes, my assumption begins with accepting that it is a translation and proceeds from that point. In other places I have argued about why, so I am not avoiding the question entirely, just bracketing it.
_Buffalo
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Re: Book of Mormon geography

Post by _Buffalo »

Brant Gardner wrote:
Brackite wrote:
It Is Because MesoAmerica is the Area where most of the LDS Apologists state where the Book of Mormon took Place.

Actually, the reasons probably have to do with whatever research program is behind the collection of the data. As far as anything to do with the Book of Mormon, the X haplotype is a red herring as used in some LDS literature. It is neither directly related to anything identifiable from Old World Israelite populations nor late enough to have had anything to do with the Book of Mormon if it were. Using the X haplotype as an apologetic argument for the Book of Mormon requires bad science and more salesmanship than scholarship.


100% agreed. This kind of frankness is refreshing.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Buffalo
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Re: Book of Mormon geography

Post by _Buffalo »

Brant Gardner wrote:Hardly. It is advice that the best archaeologists provide. There are rare cases where absence actually can mean something, but it is best not to build a very big house on a presumed absence. Once it is found it rather blows everything up in your face. Mesoamerican history is full of such surprises and required revisions of accepted "fact."


Really? How would one conclude which technologies were not present in a given civilization (or indeed which civilizations were not present in a given time/region), if not through absence?
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Chap
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Re: Book of Mormon geography

Post by _Chap »

Brant Gardner wrote:I see the meaning of the text, at a pre-word level, given to Joseph. He then turned that into English using his own vocabulary, understanding, and experience. Stephen Pinker coined the term mentalese to describe language prior to encoding in vocabulary and syntax. My hypothesis is based on some linguistic theory for language generation.


That may be how you see it.

But are there not accounts that state explicitly that Joseph saw the English words he dictated as he looked into the hat, and was able to check that they had been correctly transcribed?


Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say "Written," and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used. (Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses," reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881 in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)


Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man. (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.)


Presumably you have reason to think those accounts are unreliable?
Last edited by Guest on Thu May 17, 2012 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_Shulem
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Re: Book of Mormon geography

Post by _Shulem »

Brant Gardner wrote:Names and labels are two different mental categories. We use nouns as an identification of a set, but a name is a specific identifier. As such, names are problematic in translation. In the data for the Book of Mormon, names appear to function differently than other nouns, and I would expect them to. In this case, the mentalese communicated some nouns as labels, but the cureloms and cummons were unknown to the plate text writers, hence they are communicated as names rather than as nouns. So, while it appears that there is a different translation, there really isn't. It is the same process with the normal division between noun and name.


We have a superb example of how Joseph Smith translates using labels and names against a backdrop (not golden plates) through an ancient medium, papyrus. Let us test the prophet and see if his claim to translate an ancient language holds water.

1. Figure 2 King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head.

2. Figure 5 Shulem, one of the king's principal waiters, as represented by the characters above his hand

3. Figure 6 Olimlah, a slave belonging to the prince.

Do, feel free to show me how these translations from the hieroglyphic writing have been excecuted appropriately as were the translations from the characters off of the alleged golden plates which we are unable to examine. I note for the record, we have the papyrus and Joseph Smith has been caught red handed making false translations so this doesn't lend much credibility for his claims to translate another record we can't even examine because it doesn't exist.

The words cureloms and cummons from the golden plates are just as fake as the name Shulem from the papyrus! The missing horses from the Americas are about as real as the king's name above the head of Isis. You know I'm right, Brant. So leave it at that. I'm satisfied just knowing you know I'm right. And if you deny it I know you're just saying that. Fancy words and footnotes are not going to change a thing. Joseph Smith made up the Book of Mormon just as he made up the above Explanations to your beloved Book of Abraham. It was all a hoax and the warm feelings of the Holy Ghost are something everyone experiences all the time in all parts of the world with every subject under the sun. Once you realize the Holy Ghost witness is just feeling good about life, you can drop the Book of Mormon and admit Joseph Smith crafted it from his own mind with help from his friends.

Paul O
_Buffalo
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Re: Book of Mormon geography

Post by _Buffalo »

It's funny how Book of Mormon anachronisms always comes down to the horse. I think it's instructive to take a broader view as well:

Horses
Elephants
Metallurgy
Bows and arrows
Cattle and cows
Goats
Swine
Barley
Wheat
Wine
Silk
Compass
Windows
Cimiters
Metal based exchange systems
Synagogues
The presence of Deutero Isaiah on the brass plates


The problem is far greater than just the horses. The last one on that (incomplete) list absolutely falsifies the Book of Mormon as an authentic ancient record.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_lulu
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Re: Book of Mormon geography

Post by _lulu »

Buffalo wrote:It's funny how Book of Mormon anachronisms always comes down to the horse. I think it's instructive to take a broader view as well:

Horses
Elephants
Metallurgy
Bows and arrows
Cattle and cows
Goats
Swine
Barley
Wheat
Wine
Silk
Compass
Windows
Cimiters
Metal based exchange systems
Synagogues
The presence of Deutero Isaiah on the brass plates


The problem is far greater than just the horses. The last one on that (incomplete) list absolutely falsifies the Book of Mormon as an authentic ancient record.


Mere grape seeds, why you couldn't even feed a Buffalo with them.
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
_Tobin
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Re: Book of Mormon geography

Post by _Tobin »

Chap wrote:
Brant Gardner wrote:I see the meaning of the text, at a pre-word level, given to Joseph. He then turned that into English using his own vocabulary, understanding, and experience. Stephen Pinker coined the term mentalese to describe language prior to encoding in vocabulary and syntax. My hypothesis is based on some linguistic theory for language generation.
That may be how you see it.
But are there not early accounts that state explicitly that Joseph saw the English words he dictated as he looked into the hat, and was able to check that they had been correctly transcribed?
Presumably you have reason to think those accounts are unreliable?
I agree with Chap unfortunately. I just don't buy this loose translation theory. It certainly doesn't fit the accounts that I have read of the translation process. Don't forget that God was involved in this process with Joseph Smith. I can't believe that God would permit Joseph Smith to mistranslate words (or loosely translate or however you wish to characterize it).

Now, don't get me wrong. I do believe Joseph Smith was instrumental to this process and had to exert cognitive effort here. It makes little sense to simply believe that God just put the words in the stone in English with no effort from Joseph Smith. Simply copying in this case would be completely unneccessary. God could have just as simply translated the plates into English and delivered it to Joseph Smith. I believe instead that this transcribing process was primarily for Joseph Smith's (and the people around him) benefit and was used as a way for the Lord to teach him.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
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