Wild Kingdom

[_ajax18]

Whether religion is right or wrong will not matter an iota if/when a person lives by a code of ethics and integrity based on principles of morality wherein they avoid being mean-&-nasty, they are honest and caring and can relate to others with compassion & generousity, they will generally be happy and a good neighbor in mortality.

This hits on the way I've felt for a long time. If you want to be good, be good, why do we have to go to Church? The response I get is that we need saving ordinances. The other response I get is basically that the Lord needs your services in the Church to help other people live well. In other words it would be selfish of myself to learn true principles and not teach them to others or maybe even train others to live them which is what Church does. How do you respond to this?

Good answers so far by the way.

[_James Clifford Miller]

This is no different than the times the Lord comanded the children of Israel to cleanse a place for them to dwell. Fertile ground had to be made, and abominations destroyed.

With all due respect, I categorically reject any suggestion that there are any six month-old infants who are abominations whom god wants destroyed. If you actually believe there are, I respectfully ask that you reconsider your belief.

I also categorically reject any suggestion that any Lord commanded the children of Israel to "cleanse" a place for them to dwell. "Ethnic cleansing" is a manmade concept alien to and antithical to any real diety. I you actually believe such a terrible thing would come from a real diety, I respectfully ask that you reconsider your belief.

You will read such passages in the Old Testament, but bear in mind that God did not dictate the Bible to King James in archaic English. The Old Testament consists of writings by mortal men who recorded older oral traditions and then edited and altered these writing for various contemporary purposes. Don't confuse these men with any dieties.

James Clifford Miller
millerjamesc@cox.net

[_Inconceivable]

James,

Thank you for un-hijacking the thread.

I would like to believe what you are saying.

Aside from the volumnous evidence to the contrary, how do you draw this conclusion?

In all seriousness, if I could get past this I would be willing to not curse God and die.

[_truth dancer]

Aside from the volumnous evidence to the contrary, how do you draw this conclusion?

What evidence is there that God commands the slaughtering of babies and children?

As far as I can tell the, "God said," excuse for horrific acts and cruelty has no evidence whatsoever other than a few men claiming they speak to God.

I'm totally with James on this one.... I struggle with those men who justify their cruely by invoking God. If God is as they say, why is anyone worshipping "him?"

~dancer~

[_truth dancer]

One more thing... :-)

As a believer, I found it crazy making to release that which I felt was moral, ethical, honorable, decent, civil, right, true, or/and good in order to believe that God was good.

Actually, I just couldn't do it. (sigh) Which is, in large part why I coud not believe in the church.

~dancer~

[_Inconceivable]

Aside from the volumnous evidence to the contrary, how do you draw this conclusion?

What evidence is there that God commands the slaughtering of babies and children?

As far as I can tell the, "God said," excuse for horrific acts and cruelty has no evidence whatsoever other than a few men claiming they speak to God.

I'm totally with James on this one.... I struggle with those men who justify their cruely by invoking God. If God is as they say, why is anyone worshipping "him?"

~dancer~

I like the peaceful way about you, Truth Dancer. Now you (and James) got me thinking about a few things.

I've spent a good deal of this week permitting myself to be miserable and angry. I'm starting to sense I'm in a bit of a fog.

I'm not trying to be funny, annoying or even cynical here, but I'm going to make a list -

I can't think of one single time where I personally felt inspired to:

1) Take someones land or any other possession - ever.
2) Seek vengeance
3) Take someones livelyhood from them.
4) Not take full responsibility for my actions
5) Force someone to do something against their will
6) Look upon my neighbor's wife or daughters (or all of the sick and afflicted on the internet)
7) Take someones life (this has some exceptions - if you find every reference regarding the character of a captain Moroni in the Book of Mormon, there is nothing I would disagree with. Once again, Smith had no idea what treatures his book contained).
8) Delight in bloodshed of any kind.
9) Lie, deceive or otherwise withhold information that would sway success in my (or anyone elses) favor - including the Mormon's prophet or god.

I have felt inspired or at least felt at peace when I have:

1) Testified against an evil human being, which led to his conviction.
2) Forgiven and bore no malice and let it go.
3) Apologised
4) Saved someone from death at my own peril.
5) Helped a perfect stranger - or a not so perfect stranger
6) Spoke kind words, anytime.
7) Worked an honest days living
8) Compensated my employees justly and even gratiously
9) Taught things that I considered the peaceable things of the kingdom, like the principles of charity, forgiveness and repentance
10) Given father's blessings.
11) Expressed honest gratitude, anytime.

It's sad that an organization that has had so much potential to truly make a difference in this world would hold on so very tightly
to that which is filthy still. Maybe the God I thought I had made a connection with all of these years is not responsible for
what men have done in his name. He (God) has never given me that impression - just wicked men with ulterior motives have.

That is why I named this thread, "Wild Kingdom" - True followers of Christ are peaceable by nature. Now that I am much more
mature than I was at seven, I can see why animals might enjoy their best meals while their dinner is screaming and heaving.

But humans have the potential to be much better than that. I would hope that an unseen God that alledgedly sent his Son to do
what they say He did would teach us to be better than that anyway.

Even with all of the wars referenced in the Book of Mormon there is not one time where the righteous were justified in giving
the first offence, or commanded by their righteous leaders to seek out and destroy. Not even once taking the lives of women,
children or even unarmed soldiers - ever.

Once again, thankyou Truth Dancer.

[_Roger Morrison]

Where to start here but to say: "AMEN!" to TD & JC Miller... and, thanks for the topic Inconceivable!

Six thousand years of falsified theological evidence of a "God", "his" dominion and army is finally being seen for what it-is, and is-not as it has been proponed in "religion" and generally preached in "church".

"Truth is Dancing free!" To be enjoyed as one brings themselves to the rythm it is impossible to not feel it in ones every fibre. You're never the same, ever again.

Could be like Gaz so often says about his feelings of the Holy-Ghost. Ya just know!! The glass has cleared! Truth whispers: Old Testament writings are the beliefs, and practices of primitive people who did & thought according to the mythology under which they were schooled... It's time to see it as nothing more nor less than that.

I hasten to add this does not diminish the social message of Jesus, who himself challenged the Priest Craft of his time as NOT KNOWING "GOD"!!!

How did such a indictment go as meaningless in Judaic-Christianity? 'Inconceivable', take your time and consider well... Warm regards, Roger

[_Roger Morrison]

Whether religion is right or wrong will not matter an iota if/when a person lives by a code of ethics and integrity based on principles of morality wherein they avoid being mean-&-nasty, they are honest and caring and can relate to others with compassion & generousity, they will generally be happy and a good neighbor in mortality.

This hits on the way I've felt for a long time. If you want to be good, be good, why do we have to go to Church? The response I get is that we need saving ordinances. The other response I get is basically that the Lord needs your services in the Church to help other people live well. In other words it would be selfish of myself to learn true principles and not teach them to others or maybe even train others to live them which is what Church does. How do you respond to this?

Good answers so far by the way.

You are bringing something into focus that i've recently been considering as a essay/tract title: "Church's Good & Religion's Evil" I would like comments concerning that thought...

Cannot deny that 'church' as a social, and service centre has fed, clothed, attended the sick, etc. for centuries--long before LDS's Welfare Plan ;-) Indeed countless owe their lives to Christian-charity, as it has been called. Probably another name in other forms of religion...

OTOH, countless have been slaughtered and otherwise lost their lives because of Christian-debate. A practice that has generally come into disfavour in the last couple of centuries or so. More accurately in the 1900's.

HOWEVER, many psyche/spiritual lives are still under-the-gun wielded by authoritarian, autocratic "Religions" operating under the guise of being Christians & serving "God"... These self appointed demi-gods arrogantly and fraudulently, operating within the law--tax-free!!--pass themselves off as servants of "God" holding THE KEYS of entry into a "Heaven" only of those who will swear allegiance to their LD Priest Craft...

With the exception of RCism, few others have such audacity. Some credit for honesty in that regard must be appreciated of other Fundies... Optimist that i am, i see a time when the psyche-attack will fade as did the physical-attacks. Then Churches, free of Religion, will serve the greater purposes Jesus intended when he sent out those to teach The Two New Commandments... It's coming, ya can feel it... Warm regards, Roger

[_James Clifford Miller]

James,

Thank you for un-hijacking the thread.

I would like to believe what you are saying.

Aside from the volumnous evidence to the contrary, how do you draw this conclusion?

In all seriousness, if I could get past this I would be willing to not curse God and die.

The best place to start to understand who actually wrote the Bible is Who Wrote the Bible?, by Richard Elliott Friedman. This book has proved so popular and respected that it is now in its second, updated edition. There are other authoritative sources, and you can find them this book's bibliography at the back.

The Old Testament, specifically, was almost certainly written during the reign of Josiah, King of Judah (the southern kingdom), by the prophet Jeremiah (the First Deuteronomist) with possible assistance from the scribe Baruch, son of Neriyah. Jeremiah wrote down the two oral histories extant in the two Hebrew kingdoms (the so-called "J" traditions from the northern kingdom and the so-called "E" traditions from the southern kingdom) and composed the Old testament through Deuteronomy, editing together the E and J traditions (see: Documentary Hypothesis) to accomplish two purposes:

(1) centralize Hebrew worship in Jerusalem under Jeremiah's Arronid (not Aaronic) priesthood (effectively disenfranchising the northern kingdom of Israel's Mushite priests descended from Moses, Aaron's brother, who were the Aaronid priests' primary competition), and

(2) assist King Josiah in his monothestic religious reformation from the Hebrew's polytheistic Canaanite religious heritage and assist King Josiah in his attempts to take over the northern kingdom and combine the two kingdom's under him.

After Jeremiah completed this work, it was placed with assistance by the Aaronid priest, Hilkiah, in the Jerusalem temple. Jeremiah and Hilkiah dispatched a scribe, Shaphan, to King Josiah to announce the staged discovery of this "lost" document. As intended, King Josiah read through it and held a great national ceremony of renewal of the covenant between God and his people.

The bloodthirsty scriptural accounts you read and are horrified by in the Old Testament (including all those ethnic cleansing atrocities) tend to be designed by Jeremiah and Baruch to discredit the northern kingdom's practices and throw its traditions in the worst possible light. The archaeological evidence is that the "conquest" of Canaan by the Israelites under Joshua (like the "Exodus" under Moses) is likely a myth. So all those stories about conquering cities were almost certainly made up to discredit the king and priests of the northern kingdom. The archaeological evidence is that Israel was always part of the Canaanite region and culture, speaking the same language, wearing the same clothes, intermarrying, eating the same food, and worshipping the shared Canaanite gods.

LDS apologists who cling to the atrocities as scripturally true have fallen hook, line and sinker for propaganda produced by King Josiah and his chief propagandist, the prophet Jeremiah, as they busied themselves grabbing money and power.

It always comes down to grabbing money and power, doesn't it?

As a footnote to history, Jeremiah's prophecies about the glorious heritage of King Josiah's reformations were dashed to the ground when King Josiah was killed in battle by an arrow. As the TV ad says, "Life comes at you fast."

James Clifford Miller
millerjamesc@cox.net