Politics, The Chosen Land, and Why we Fight

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_Ray A

Re: Standards of Living

Post by _Ray A »

aussieguy55 wrote:
I found this in a chart of standards of living. It seems some of those wicked "socialist" countries are doing well. In Australia some people fear we will have followed the American model and end up with working poor who are homeless.


I'm doing quite fine thank you, Noel. Because I get off my ass and work. While I don't doubt some are genuinely in need, I have seen too many bludgers rorting the system. Are you prepared to work your guts out to support welfare bludgers who spend all their money on grog while blaming "the government" for all their self-inflicted woes? How much do you have to bleed to accept this vile crap?
_aussieguy55
_Emeritus
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Yes

Post by _aussieguy55 »

Just because some misuse the system does not negate the fact that the transfers of income do help a lot of people who would be struggling more. My neighbour just had open heart surgery. Here it was free, in America she probably would have died. I don't mind my taxes helping people in need. Packer (billionaire)bragged about not paying his fair share of tax and as we now know was screwing around behind Jamie Packer's mother
Hilary Clinton " I won the places that represent two-thirds of America's GDP.I won in places are optimistic diverse, dynamic, moving forward"
_Ray A

Re: Yes

Post by _Ray A »

aussieguy55 wrote:Just because some misuse the system does not negate the fact that the transfers of income do help a lot of people who would be struggling more. My neighbour just had open heart surgery. Here it was free, in America she probably would have died. I don't mind my taxes helping people in need. Packer (billionaire)bragged about not paying his fair share of tax and as we now know was screwing around behind Jamie Packer's mother


I know all about Packer's "indiscretions", since I know sources close to him, including a security guard who worked for him. Remember, Packer was an atheist who believed that this life is "all there is", and he had no scruples or guides except his "own conscience". He was, to put it mildly, a notorious womaniser and spendthrift. Yet, he was never happy, and I have this on good authority. He was a close friend of Rene Rivikin, who committed suicide, as you know. They were both filthy rich, yet never found true happiness. I don't encourage this, and I think it's misguided.

I can see your POV to some extent, and even agree with it. But I don't see "correlations" to Mormonism. I think this is very superficial, and even vindictive comparison.
_Mary
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Re: Standards of Living

Post by _Mary »

aussieguy55 wrote:Country

1. Norway
2. Sweden
3. Canada
4. Belgium
5. Australia
6. United States
7. Iceland
8. Netherlands
9. Japan
10. Finland

I found this in a chart of standards of living. It seems some of those wicked "socialist" countries are doing well. In Australia some people fear we will have followed the American model and end up with working poor who are homeless.


Aussieguy, I don't doubt the statistics for Norway and Sweden. Small populations and everyone seems to enjoy a good standard of living. Hmm. though.
How did they arrive at those statistics? Was it through taking the GDP and then averageing it out per person? If it was then the statistics are not representative of just how much poverty exists in a place like the US or Australia for instance.

Ray, I can't use my pm feature for some reason, just sends me to a menu page....thanks for the information though....

Also, I have never in my life heard that the US built 90% of the roads in England. I studied 20th Century history at Uni so I am assuming it would have come up somewhere, but maybe the tutors just missed it????

Mary
_Ray A

Re: Standards of Living

Post by _Ray A »

Miss Taken wrote:Also, I have never in my life heard that the US built 90% of the roads in England. I studied 20th Century history at Uni so I am assuming it would have come up somewhere, but maybe the tutors just missed it????

Mary


I was using some hyperbole. It was not the US, anyway. Trinidad has natural resources of pitch in the La Brea area, and this was transported by English merchants, not US. Trinidad became a colony of Britain in 1797, and gained independence in 1962. Many of the streets in Trinidad are named after English colonisers, like "Woodford Square", but the Spanish also had great influence, like Don Chacon. And there is still "Abercrombie Street", named after Lord Abercrombie. I know for sure that England relied heavily on Trinidad's natural resources, but I'd have to do some noxious Net surfing to "prove" what I learned in secondary school. LOL.
_Ray A

Re: Standards of Living

Post by _Ray A »

Miss Taken wrote:Ray, I can't use my pm feature for some reason, just sends me to a menu page....thanks for the information though....



When you can PM I'll give you my email, or if you search my profile on MAD you'll find it there. If you're coming to Oz I'd love to hear from you.
_aussieguy55
_Emeritus
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Cheaper with 3 Jobs

Post by _aussieguy55 »

Misstaken I have a work collegue who just came back from Las Vegas. She told me that many people needed to work 3 Jobs to survive there. Our country has a budget in surplus, a good cheap medicine scheme, universal health care, loans for university study, families receive $4000 from the Gov when a baby is born. After that based in income thet receive more money each month for each child. No wonder food is cheap there (America) if the workers get SH pay. Don't you think there is something obscene for a country that is suppose to be the richest nation should have such a disparity in income. I was watching on YouTube some guy had infilerated the Young Republicans and asking them why they were not doing army service. It seems they were busy getting an education. Just promise the poor and blacks a college education to get them in the army to eventually end up in Iraq. I watch Jon Stewart on the Daily Show. Its a treat to watch the Senate questioning the Attorney General and how many "I can't recalls" he responds with. The man is an idiot and he is supposed to be the First Law officer of the US.
Hilary Clinton " I won the places that represent two-thirds of America's GDP.I won in places are optimistic diverse, dynamic, moving forward"
_Mary
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Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Cheaper with 3 Jobs

Post by _Mary »

aussieguy55 wrote:Misstaken I have a work collegue who just came back from Las Vegas. She told me that many people needed to work 3 Jobs to survive there. Our country has a budget in surplus, a good cheap medicine scheme, universal health care, loans for university study, families receive $4000 from the Gov when a baby is born. After that based in income thet receive more money each month for each child. No wonder food is cheap there (America) if the workers get SH pay. Don't you think there is something obscene for a country that is suppose to be the richest nation should have such a disparity in income. I was watching on YouTube some guy had infilerated the Young Republicans and asking them why they were not doing army service. It seems they were busy getting an education. Just promise the poor and blacks a college education to get them in the army to eventually end up in Iraq. I watch Jon Stewart on the Daily Show. Its a treat to watch the Senate questioning the Attorney General and how many "I can't recalls" he responds with. The man is an idiot and he is supposed to be the First Law officer of the US.


What I can't believe about Australia is the price of housing (though I have heard it is going up). An average house over here (UK) costs around £250,000. Not sure what that would be in dollars. That would buy a small, semi-detached 3 bedroom house on an ex council estate within a 50 mile radius of London. Crazy money.
If you want a house in the country with just a little land, no more than 1/4 acre, that will set you back around £500,000 and upwards. Crazy. Crazy.. crazy. And when you die the state takes 40% of your assets over £285,000. We have the NHS here, but I just had to go private at a cost of £4000 for an op that would have taken 10 months to do had I waited on the NHS, and we've paid into National Insurance all our lives. It cost my father his life in retrospect, and I didn't want to go the same way. I do believe in taxation but I do believe also that taxation should be fair and should have limits. What's crazy is that those in the know, like Branson, and even Margaret Thatcher are clever enough and rich enough to hire tax experts so they avoid the very taxes that the majority are expected to pay. Margaret had most of their assets in offshore discretionary trusts, so her tax bill when her husband died was next to nothing...and she was the PM for goodness sake....and the government ministers are becoming reknowned for misuse of public funds for their expenses and second homes etc, yet they don't have the £10,000 it would take to put some traffic calming on the road through our village in order to protect kids walking to school.

I think the Brits have a much more cynical attitude towards America, though they respect it and the government certainly seems to want to keep that 'special relationship' going. In terms of cultural influence what we seem to get is an endless stream of McDonalds and Pizza Huts, on top of that the beginning of gang groups that seem to want to kill each other with guns. I've never been under any illusion about America. It is a beautiful country, but it is also full of poverty and injustice...just as most countries are. I get kind of sick of seeing films out of Hollywood where the goodies are always the Americans and the baddies are the Europeans, the Russians and now of course the Arab countries. If only life were so black and white.

Mary
_Mary
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Post by _Mary »

Truth Dancer, I think that Capitalism is America's God for good or ill. I also think that the wealthy few have always run countries. That's what the European Royal Families were all about historically.

I don't know that the Bolsheviks did any better though. When they took power all they did was take the money and lands formally in the hands of the elite, for their own good. Under Stalin more people died of his policies than Jews did under Hitler in the 2ndww.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I think that goes for any system, including the LDS church for what it's worth.

Mary
_barrelomonkeys
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Re: Most TBM's I know are right wing nut jobs

Post by _barrelomonkeys »

ktallamigo wrote:Most Americans are blind to the truth about our country, just like TBM's are blind to the truth about the church. If a person cares about the truth, and really wants to know the truth no matter down what path it leads, the truth can be found. But once you go down that road you can't go back.

Now, just because a person knows and recognizes the truth about what America does in the world doesn't make that person a Benedict Arnold. It just opens their eyes to realities that most Americans don't know about - or don't want to know about. You can still love your country while it is imperfect. You love your country - so you hope it will progress and be the shining example to the world that you think it should be.

The truth is that the American government and its ruling class do a lot of harm throughout the world - for the benefit of the few. Our country is imperialistic, and is directly or indirectly responsible for much suffering and bloodshed. Knowing this does not make one a traitor, just sad.

Most of the TBM's I know are right-wing nut jobs who believe all the propaganda they get from FOX "news", Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, etc. etc. They are sure that AMerica is the good guy, going throughout the world just trying to help, and always being so misunderstood. Trying to tell these kinds of people the truth about what AMerica really does is like trying to tell them the church isn't true. They simply won't believe it! Or, they become apologists.

In fact, it was just this kind of thing that made me question the church. If the brethren were really inspired, I thought, why were they so wrong about politics? Look at Ezra Taft Benson. My mother (TBM) says that George W. Bush will go down in history as one of the greatest presidents ever!!! My sister (TBM) and her whole family listen to Rush Limbaugh and believe that global warming is a conspiracy to keep people from believing that the SAvior is causing all the climate problems. Most of my friends and neighbors hate environmentalists, gays, liberals, feminists and intellectuals. They are all TBM's. It is so frustrating to talk to these good people - who are so unimformed.

The most eye-opening books I have read lately about America:

Democracy for the Few by Michael Parenti
Understanding Power by Noam Chomsky
Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since WWII by William Blum
A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn

These books should be "must" reading for every American who really wants to know the truth.


I think it's interesting you think you can know the "truth" about America by reading books that skew to the left. I've read every book listed there, and quite a few more by Chomsky, and probably have a different take on America than you.

I don't believe I can have the "truth" by reading only leftist literature. I believe the "truth" (although I find the idea suspect that there is a "truth") is somewhere in the middle. :)
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