Why They Leave

[_beastie]

Definitely church leadership's attitude has to change to make significant headway in this issue. But life is really tough sometimes and offers nothing but rocks and hard places. I can well imagine young Mormons rushing into marriage, based primarily on being equally active in church, hormones, and wanting to fulfill god's will, and later in life one of them loses belief. How strong is the marriage? Can it endure the total rejection of the church by one spouse? Often it appears not.

My philosophy has been that when minor children are involved, as long as the marriage is functioning in that it provides a safe, fairly peaceful, stable home environment for the children, then I would take extraordinary measures to maintain that familial structure for the children's sake. I know it's not a perfect solution, children often sense underlying stress, too - that's why I stress IF the marriage works well enough to provide a good environment for the kids, then it's probably better for them to make some sacrifices for their well-being. So I can appreciate changing HOW one views the church in order to maintain the familial structure, and hopefully, conveying their own view to the children, as well.

I hate that any person is caught in a marriage in which one partner demands that the other pretend to be or believe something he/she does not, but this is an imperfect world we live in and, frankly, lots of marriages suck that way. I also hate that people still associate with frankly patriarchal and anti-gay organizations, and find a great deal about that to be immoral. But, as I said, sometimes life doesn't do anything but offer a rock and a hard place.

I will say that the church does a good job in organizing its members to take care of one another in times of severe need. I think that was the plus John was emphasizing. I also think he tried to explain that he recognizes that some folks may still choose to leave in order to be happier, and he was not condemning that. (all of which makes him far too liberal for most believers, obviously)

[_MishMagnet]

I had listened to the podcast last year. I really, really liked the first part. I felt validated - which is a feeling I've never had from a TBM since leaving. I did feel that the conclusions were a bit hasty, though. Although the first part seemed to really understand what it was like to leave the conclusion didn't. If I remember correctly it was just love them and validate why they chose to leave. It seemed a bit too convenient and I found myself wondering if the whole purpose of the presentation was to get authentic history out there in a less-threatening way. After I listened to it the author came on RfM and got his butt handed to him for not leaving the church. I remember him saying he was a NOM, he wanted to change the church from within, there was a lot of good to be found in the church, etc.

It's been 15 years for me since leaving. I spent 10 years not going to any church and then in the past 5 have tried many different churches, trying to find a sense of community for my family. Trying to find a compromise between my beliefs and two Christian grandparent families. My kids have done fine at any church we've gone to. I have never felt like I fit in. It comes down to the same thing as with the LDS church - if this isn't the truth I'm just wasting time here. This is an hour (or 3) that I could be doing something I enjoy instead of sitting here. What's the point? Even the UU church (which I match 100% in theory) didn't do it for me. I felt as out of place there as anywhere else. There are many, many wonderful people in the LDS church. I feel certain danger from the church, though, and this is why I can't bring my children there. The indoctrination of the Primary is so obvious on my ears that are no longer used to hearing it. I hope they call me on a mission. I love to see the temple, etc, etc. Even friends whom I consider progressive still say "WHEN Jack is on his mission" instead of IF. One of my friends had made the comment 'Oh, I'm so sad to be done having babies but I know I'll be a grandmother in 2 years.' Her oldest son was on a mission at the time. Sure enough he came home, was married 4 months later and is now trying for a baby.

Anyway. And as a testament that my parents don't believe me and don't validate me; included in my Christmas present, on top of the wrapped box and under the ribbon is a Conference edition of the Ensign. 15 years. They will not ever lose hope that I"ll come to my senses. They don't want me just the way I am.

[_Maxrep]

Why They Leave by John Dehlin:

http://mormonstories.org/whytheyleave/

Hands down the best hour I've spent on the internet. If you are still in a position where you attend, this podcast/slide show is more than a breathe of fresh air.

Brilliant!

Thanks for the link Maxrep. This IS one of the most concise explanations of my exodus...and given by an active Mormon (hopefully making it more believable by members). It's in my "favorites," and I will use it whenever a person wants to know why I left.

I'm glad you enjoyed it! I also put in my favorites. You can't start this presentation, and then turn it off 5 minutes later - it grabs you by the throat and holds your attention. My buddy watched it twice in a row!

I listened to the podcast. Most of it was good but I thought his conclusions were a little off. I agree that there could probably be more charity towards others rather than a vague sense of fear about them. However, his conclusion that people should consider staying because of good rather than truth came off as shallow to me. Maybe it works for him and some others but I couldn't do it.

Thanks for the comments. Looking for 'good' rather than 'true' works for some, but barely! It is extremely hard to tolerate church after the loss of testimony. I can't describe it to you, it is something that has to be experienced. My experience is that the testimony never comes back, but some have found a way to work around it for the most basic reason that they have loved ones still involved in the church and in the LDS community.

[_harmony]

It's part of the dicotomy (sp?) type thinking in the church. Pres. Hinckley has said, many times, either it is true, or it is a fraud. That doesn't leave much for middle ground. Especially in light of last weeks EQ lesson where we are to accept everything, I mean EVERYTHING on faith. The Bretheren are in control.

And that is how I differentiate the teachings of men. Pres Hinckley has no business laying down the law. It's not his to lay down. This kind of thinking is men talking, not God.

I feel it's the church itself that imposed this "all or nothing" way of thinking on the member.

That has "man" written all over it.

[_Maxrep]

included in my Christmas present, on top of the wrapped box and under the ribbon is a Conference edition of the Ensign. 15 years. They will not ever lose hope that I"ll come to my senses. They don't want me just the way I am.

Holy cow, I'm about ready to cry for you! This is Christmas time, what the heck? Maybe all of us here can spring for a copy of Sunstone and send it your way.

EDIT:

I've got a good Idea. You and I will swap our stupid Christmas gifts. I'll send you that boneheaded $300 church donation check I just received, and you send me that thoughtless copy of the Ensign.

[_harmony]

They don't want me just the way I am.

Which is why my oldest daughter is sure she'll never marry (and I think she's right): there is no Mormon man who will want her just the way she is. And she's not even apostate! She's just very liberal.

Mormons don't know what unconditional love is. Turning one's back on one's child, because she made a choice we don't agree with? NEVER! I had this conversation with my SIL last night, when she was upset about her oldest daughter living with a her ex husband. No one tells me to turn my back on my child... no one!

[_Jason Bourne]

Why They Leave by John Dehlin:

http://mormonstories.org/whytheyleave/

Hands down the best hour I've spent on the internet. If you are still in a position where you attend, this podcast/slide show is more than a breathe of fresh air.

Brilliant!

Thanks for the link Maxrep. This IS one of the most concise explanations of my exodus...and given by an active Mormon (hopefully making it more believable by members). It's in my "favorites," and I will use it whenever a person wants to know why I left.

John Dehlin is pretty good, and pretty cool. His web page Mormon Stories is just fantastic. And he still is a member, attends and does say he believes. But he does not shy away from tough issues and he does not explain away problem simplistically.

[Guest]

They don't want me just the way I am.

Which is why my oldest daughter is sure she'll never marry (and I think she's right): there is no Mormon man who will want her just the way she is. And she's not even apostate! She's just very liberal.

Mormons don't know what unconditional love is. Turning one's back on one's child, because she made a choice we don't agree with? NEVER! I had this conversation with my SIL last night, when she was upset about her oldest daughter living with a her ex husband. No one tells me to turn my back on my child... no one!

I remember the comment from a Mormon (was it Charity?):

"God has unconditional love, as long as you obey his commandments."

Doh!

[_BishopRic]

Why They Leave by John Dehlin:

http://mormonstories.org/whytheyleave/

Hands down the best hour I've spent on the internet. If you are still in a position where you attend, this podcast/slide show is more than a breathe of fresh air.

Brilliant!

Thanks for the link Maxrep. This IS one of the most concise explanations of my exodus...and given by an active Mormon (hopefully making it more believable by members). It's in my "favorites," and I will use it whenever a person wants to know why I left.

John Dehlin is pretty good, and pretty cool. His web page Mormon Stories is just fantastic. And he still is a member, attends and does say he believes. But he does not shy away from tough issues and he does not explain away problem simplistically.

I really am glad there are active members like him...if they can handle the strange (often untrue) comments made constantly by members, they will serve to transition the church from within to being more honest, I think.

[_skippy the dead]

They don't want me just the way I am.

Which is why my oldest daughter is sure she'll never marry (and I think she's right): there is no Mormon man who will want her just the way she is. And she's not even apostate! She's just very liberal.

Which is, of course, why I married outside of the church. At the time I was very liberal (still am, of course), but willing to go along for the ride while putting my doubts aside. Having a non-member spouse worked out well - when I was ready to leave, I didn't have to worry about having a spouse that still believed to create any problems.