The Golden Rule

[_harmony]

Anyway, I am wondering if you made it into work today. If so, I hope your commute was safe. I have been shoveling snow most of morning (here in Sandy we received about a foot or more, added to the several inches that had yet to melt) and am just now giving my back a rest. I took a friend to work around 11:00am, and nearly got into an accident. I am not looking forward to picking her up from work later this evening when the roads start to freeze. In spite of the hazzards, though, the snow is beautiful.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

MLK Day here, so I'm off work. No snow. A beautiful sunshiny winter day.

[_wenglund]

I think there's a reason for that. Like many teachings, what is taught is sometimes not practiced very well. Since Christianity is mostly a borrowed religion from Paganism and earlier Greek traditions, The GR is also borrowed. But when you really dig deeply, Christians are among the major religions today that don't follow it well...

While people can reasonably debate the origins of Christianity and the Golden Rule, I don't know if it is edifying to proffer sweeping judgements about Christian observance (or lack thereof) of the Golden Rule. Instead, I think we would be better served to focus our analysis of GR observance inward, where we are in possession of all the pertinent facts, and where we are in a position to affect change rather than simply judge. At least that is what the GR directs me to do.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Hi, Wade. I asked the question to see if it is stressed in the Church. I saw Stu posted scripture, and I knew there are passages in the Bible that deal with the GR. My question was; is it stressed? Is this something emphasized in the Church? How is it done?

I was looking for examples or experiences that those in the Church might like to share. I know I emphasize this with my children. We do many charitable acts and I allow them to experience first hand the intrinsic rewards of loving our neighbors. Especially those that are in need. In their interactions with each other the GR is often what my message essentially boils down to when I chide them to be more loving with another. It's in the everyday little actions that we can see this principle reinforced -- and the biggies too. :)

Do you have a way in which you can share as to how the Church has a positive influence on helping teach this principle?

I appreciate you asking, and giving me a chance to share with you. One example among many that I could cite, and one that I have found to have had ample application during my participation on message boards such as this, is that because I know how disheartening and even hurtful it can be at times to have my faith and fellow members persistently criticized, ridiculed, stereotyped, denegrated, etc., and so the GR that I learned through my membership in the Church, encourages me not to do the same to other people's faith and members in return, but to extend to them the same kind of respect for their faith as I wish to have extended towards my own.

Granted, in times past I had no few verbal sparing matches where I got very insulting and mean-spirited. However, even then, I refraned from denegrating a persons faith or personal beliefs, and confined myself to countering their attacks against my faith.

In the last several years, though, I have deliberately scaled way back on the counter-attacks, preferring instead to remain somewhat removed from the back-and-forth hissing and spitting (so to speak), and instead work to encourage us all to find ways to uplift and support each other regardless of our differences. I am not always successful in keeping that charge, but I do try.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_BishopRic]

I think there's a reason for that. Like many teachings, what is taught is sometimes not practiced very well. Since Christianity is mostly a borrowed religion from Paganism and earlier Greek traditions, The GR is also borrowed. But when you really dig deeply, Christians are among the major religions today that don't follow it well...

While people can reasonably debate the origins of Christianity and the Golden Rule, I don't know if it is edifying to proffer sweeping judgements about Christian observance (or lack thereof) of the Golden Rule. Instead, I think we would be better served to focus our analysis of GR observance inward, where we are in possession of all the pertinent facts, and where we are in a position to affect change rather than simply judge. At least that is what the GR directs me to do.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Or we can learn from the mistakes and contradictions of some dogmas, and find a way that is more consistent with integrous and honest living and shape a lifestyle that leads us to true happiness. Yes, I also believe that involves looking inside to our own sorce of truth and live consistent with our heart.

That's what has worked for me.

I don't happen to view it as an either/or situation. I think that while it is in one's interest to focus primarily internally (particularly when making judgements) for working towards "true happiness", one can learn from others, be they individuals or groups, be they described as "dogmas" or described less stereotypically or otherwise. I just don't think that kind of learning comes best from making sweeping judgements of "out groups" on discussion boards.

Anyway, I am wondering if you made it into work today. If so, I hope your commute was safe. I have been shoveling snow most of morning (here in Sandy we received about a foot or more, added to the several inches that had yet to melt) and am just now giving my back a rest. I took a friend to work around 11:00am, and nearly got into an accident. I am not looking forward to picking her up from work later this evening when the roads start to freeze. In spite of the hazzards, though, the snow is beautiful.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Regarding "judgments," of course humans are wired to make judgments based on available information and past experiential lessons. If I walk down a back alley and see a few guys coming toward me with knives and guns in their hands, I'm sure gonna get out of there as quickly as I can, whereas if I see a couple of conservatively dressed, clean looking guys...well, it wouldn't shake me up much. That's a judgment, and it's based on many different experiences in my life up to that point.

Now if a two year old (for some reason...) is in the same predicament, they probably would react the same to both groups, simply because the child has not had the life lessons to know otherwise.

So, as it relates to religious dogmas and cultural lifestyles, I think it is the same. During my transition, I was confused about what appeared to be taught, and what was practiced. I was under the impression that we should have unconditional love, but I observed many in my (Sandy) neighborhood that would reject the non-members as friends.

While I was studying, (you know, the "Glory of God is Intelligence, right?), I approached many "scholars" about what I had read, and rather than offer guidance to positive answers, they slammed the sources as "anti-Mormon vile." And when I tried to get why it was wrong, there was never a good answer, and the scoffing that I was reading wicked material, and I was losing the spirit, was confusing to me.

So when I hear about teachings such as the GR, and that it is adhered to in Mormonism (and other religions), and the reality is that it is grossly ignored, as my post above indicates, I think it is helpful to point out the contradictions so that others might learn from lessons that may be helpful as they "judge" to find a lifestyle that brings them happiness.

Yes, the storm was a challenge this morning. I left a bit early, didn't need to travel I-15, so I got to work a bit earlier than usual since many have the day off. Glad you were able to avoid the accident!

Tale care!

[_wenglund]

I think there's a reason for that. Like many teachings, what is taught is sometimes not practiced very well. Since Christianity is mostly a borrowed religion from Paganism and earlier Greek traditions, The GR is also borrowed. But when you really dig deeply, Christians are among the major religions today that don't follow it well...

While people can reasonably debate the origins of Christianity and the Golden Rule, I don't know if it is edifying to proffer sweeping judgements about Christian observance (or lack thereof) of the Golden Rule. Instead, I think we would be better served to focus our analysis of GR observance inward, where we are in possession of all the pertinent facts, and where we are in a position to affect change rather than simply judge. At least that is what the GR directs me to do.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It would probably be most helpful if you followed your own advice, Wade. You know... focus inward, rather than outward. I'm seeing a whole of outward focusing from you, and not a whole lot of inward. The teacher who actually lives what he teaches is the most effective.

I appreciate your ironic and externally focused feedback, though I am uncertain as to its accuracy. If you count the number of "I" statements, or "we" statements (which is inclusive of the "I"), that I have made in terms of dispensing advice, as contrasted with "you" statements regarding the same, I don't know if one can reasonably jump to the conclusion that you have--though I will certainly give your advice to ME (speaking of irony) due consideration. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

Regarding "judgments," of course humans are wired to make judgments based on available information and past experiential lessons. If I walk down a back alley and see a few guys coming toward me with knives and guns in their hands, I'm sure gonna get out of there as quickly as I can, whereas if I see a couple of conservatively dressed, clean looking guys...well, it wouldn't shake me up much. That's a judgment, and it's based on many different experiences in my life up to that point.

Now if a two year old (for some reason...) is in the same predicament, they probably would react the same to both groups, simply because the child has not had the life lessons to know otherwise.

So, as it relates to religious dogmas and cultural lifestyles, I think it is the same. During my transition, I was confused about what appeared to be taught, and what was practiced. I was under the impression that we should have unconditional love, but I observed many in my (Sandy) neighborhood that would reject the non-members as friends.

While I was studying, (you know, the "Glory of God is Intelligence, right?), I approached many "scholars" about what I had read, and rather than offer guidance to positive answers, they slammed the sources as "anti-Mormon vile." And when I tried to get why it was wrong, there was never a good answer, and the scoffing that I was reading wicked material, and I was losing the spirit, was confusing to me.

So when I hear about teachings such as the GR, and that it is adhered to in Mormonism (and other religions), and the reality is that it is grossly ignored, as my post above indicates, I think it is helpful to point out the contradictions so that others might learn from lessons that may be helpful as they "judge" to find a lifestyle that brings them happiness.

I think I get what you are saying, and in many ways I agree. Please don't misunderstand me, though. I think inductive reasoning (what some people may call "judgement") is an invaluable mechanism for all sort of things within our daily lives--particularly those things that impact our safety or happiness.

However, even with as invaluable of a mechanism as it is, inductive reasoning can be misused--particularly where there is insufficient data to make an accurate assessment, and/or where the data may be sufficient for assessing individual cases but insufficient to make sweeping "judgements" of whole groups.

For example, having lived for a time in the South, I became aware of white people who had unfavorable experiences with black men, and because of those bad experiences, they thought it in their interest to be leary of all black people, and to point out their "judgement" of blacks so "that others might learn from lessons that may be helpful as they 'judge' to find a lifestyle that brings them happiness." Unfortunately, while their intent may have been well and good, such sweeping "judgements" of a whole class of people, based on experience with some black men, paid a disservice to good, descent, hardworking, safe, and kindly blacks (both men and women).

To me, the same principle applies when inductively reasoning about the Church based on one's experience with certain members of the Church in a given area. During my youth I attended a Ward in Granger (now West Valley), and quite frequently learned of attitudes and behaviors of members that didn't comport with my understanding of the gospel--some behaviors that were a radical departure from my understanding of the gospel (the father of the family that lived right behind us spent a number of years in jail for murder, several of the neighbors just around the block were into wife-swapping, which resulted in several divorces, and I could go on and on).

Naturally, this confused me quite a bit, and I suppose I could have chosen to extrapolate my experience in assessing the Church as a whole. Fortunately, though, I was blessed with counter-balancing examples (my good parents in particularly), and learned a valuable lesson about the virtue of "judge" people individually, rather as groups.

I also learned to distinguish between principles and practice when inductively reasoning, and figured out the value of certain principles are best determined by properly implementing the principles, rather than on whether others may adhere to the principles or not, and how they may or may not adhere to the principles. To me, it is metaphorically like walking into a hospital and deeming it a health failure because of the proportionally greater number of sick people inside as contrasted with outside. Whereas, the unhealthy people are there at the hospital because the healing works. I find it helpful to view the Church in much the same way. I don't access the Church on how many spiritually "sick" people I may encounter inside, but rather by whether the Church's "treatment" works or not. For me, it does--though I can respect if others have found various alternative "treatment" plans more preferred.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Runtu]

I also learned to distinguish between principles and practice when inductively reasoning, and figured out the value of certain principles are best determined by properly implementing the principles, rather than on whether others may adhere to the principles or not, and how they may or may not adhere to the principles. To me, it is metaphorically like walking into a hospital and deeming it a health failure because of the proportionally greater number of sick people inside as contrasted with outside. Whereas, the unhealthy people are there at the hospital because the healing works. I find it helpful to view the Church in much the same way. I don't access the Church on how many spiritually "sick" people I may encounter inside, but rather by whether the Church's "treatment" works or not. For me, it does--though I can respect if others have found various alternative "treatment" plans more preferred.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I will be the first to admit that Mormonism worked for me for 40 years. What mattered to me was not "does it work?" but "is it true?" Once I discovered that it wasn't true, after all, I realized that it was no more an effective treatment plan than any other. And since its truthfulness is bound up with its effectiveness, it lost a lot of its effectiveness for me once it was divorced from "truth."

[_harmony]

I also learned to distinguish between principles and practice when inductively reasoning, and figured out the value of certain principles are best determined by properly implementing the principles, rather than on whether others may adhere to the principles or not, and how they may or may not adhere to the principles.

The only problem with your paradigm is that while it may work for you on a personal level and it may work for me on a personal level, it isn't going to work for the church as a whole until it works on a personal level for our leaders. Which is why living our religion is so difficult, yet so necessary.

Granger, UT?

[_Moniker]

I think there's a reason for that. Like many teachings, what is taught is sometimes not practiced very well. Since Christianity is mostly a borrowed religion from Paganism and earlier Greek traditions, The GR is also borrowed. But when you really dig deeply, Christians are among the major religions today that don't follow it well...

While people can reasonably debate the origins of Christianity and the Golden Rule, I don't know if it is edifying to proffer sweeping judgements about Christian observance (or lack thereof) of the Golden Rule. Instead, I think we would be better served to focus our analysis of GR observance inward, where we are in possession of all the pertinent facts, and where we are in a position to affect change rather than simply judge. At least that is what the GR directs me to do.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Hi, Wade. I asked the question to see if it is stressed in the Church. I saw Stu posted scripture, and I knew there are passages in the Bible that deal with the GR. My question was; is it stressed? Is this something emphasized in the Church? How is it done?

I was looking for examples or experiences that those in the Church might like to share. I know I emphasize this with my children. We do many charitable acts and I allow them to experience first hand the intrinsic rewards of loving our neighbors. Especially those that are in need. In their interactions with each other the GR is often what my message essentially boils down to when I chide them to be more loving with another. It's in the everyday little actions that we can see this principle reinforced -- and the biggies too. :)

Do you have a way in which you can share as to how the Church has a positive influence on helping teach this principle?

I appreciate you asking, and giving me a chance to share with you. One example among many that I could cite, and one that I have found to have had ample application during my participation on message boards such as this, is that because I know how disheartening and even hurtful it can be at times to have my faith and fellow members persistently criticized, ridiculed, stereotyped, denegrated, etc., and so the GR that I learned through my membership in the Church, encourages me not to do the same to other people's faith and members in return, but to extend to them the same kind of respect for their faith as I wish to have extended towards my own.

Granted, in times past I had no few verbal sparing matches where I got very insulting and mean-spirited. However, even then, I refraned from denegrating a persons faith or personal beliefs, and confined myself to countering their attacks against my faith.

In the last several years, though, I have deliberately scaled way back on the counter-attacks, preferring instead to remain somewhat removed from the back-and-forth hissing and spitting (so to speak), and instead work to encourage us all to find ways to uplift and support each other regardless of our differences. I am not always successful in keeping that charge, but I do try.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade, I understand that faith is something very personal. I can't quite relate as it is not something I share, yet I do witness the pain inflicted on some when their cherished beliefs are targeted. I have in the past tried to be very, very, considerate to those that hold these beliefs and attempt to not ridicule or degrade. I've been a bit less restrained lately then usual and recognize this change in me! Interestingly enough this occurred because I felt like I was attacked personally -- so my replies (while perhaps not truly acknowledging it) were retaliatory in nature.

I grew up in Japan and right next to my home was a Shinto shrine. The experience of watching other cultures, rites, and beliefs was a very important aspect, for me, of recognizing how I look to differences and find the beautiful in them -- even respect them. There is much in religion that I find endearing -- what I do not need not be said. Sometimes it's a difficult line to know where it passes from discussing religion to being derogatory towards those that hold the beliefs. I know I have crossed the line with Coggins the last few weeks after he repeatedly made comments to me that essentially boiled down to me being a dumb slut. I should have ignored, and I did for a while and then it felt good to retaliate. Not appropriate. I regret it.

Boards do present a challenge to us! I think recognizing that sometimes our behavior is not what we hope for -- and seeing it right there in front of us can help us strive to do better.

[_BishopRic]

I find it helpful to view the Church in much the same way. I don't access the Church on how many spiritually "sick" people I may encounter inside, but rather by whether the Church's "treatment" works or not. For me, it does--though I can respect if others have found various alternative "treatment" plans more preferred.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I appreciate what you are saying -- I like the example from the south, and have many examples in my own life that are similar. But I see an apples/oranges comparison of the church to hospitals (and I think you may not have implied this, but to make my point, I will). EVERYBODY in the hospital is "sick," or healing from something, but I don't think everybody in church is. Now, it is true that many religions (including Mormonism) attempt to indoctrinate people into believing they are "sick," and in need of forgiveness, etc., but most people are generally healthy and come from a good cross-section of society. Of course there are bad apples in any group, but when the norm (the majority) of the group are living a particular belief system, I think it is fair to "judge" whether that system works for me.

I found that there were some dramatic conflicts in actions compared to beliefs in Mormonism (some I've mentioned above). These weren't a few that were obviously going against the norms, like the wife swapping. I'm talking about the norm -- and as I've said before, it wasn't the "being offended" that drove me out, it was simply the trigger that made me think "what else is awry with this system?" And after my years of studying, it became clear to me its claims of unique connection to, and authority from God were false.

Now, the next chapter for me was the questioning of other religions too, and I didn't find any other "religion" to be more "true." So I transitioned to a place where I find good in many faiths -- and many faults. I find my spirituality in the basic energy of love. I think it is what bonds all things and people. I find the opposite is fear, or the absence of love. The paradigm has not been contradictory to me in any way, but I'm always open to learning new ways for what works and doesn't.

I think I've mentioned before that my second daughter is active LDS, and is one of the happiest people I know. She knows nothing of the challenges of history, and is not interested in hearing about them. I don't see the LDS culture or lifestyle as being so dramatically terrible for everybody like others do. If a person can find their happiness there, I rejoice with them...and I certainly do with her.

(Sorry for getting off-track). I think the GR is the core foundation for ALL positive systems of faith, and I hope we can recognize that.

[_wenglund]

I also learned to distinguish between principles and practice when inductively reasoning, and figured out the value of certain principles are best determined by properly implementing the principles, rather than on whether others may adhere to the principles or not, and how they may or may not adhere to the principles. To me, it is metaphorically like walking into a hospital and deeming it a health failure because of the proportionally greater number of sick people inside as contrasted with outside. Whereas, the unhealthy people are there at the hospital because the healing works. I find it helpful to view the Church in much the same way. I don't access the Church on how many spiritually "sick" people I may encounter inside, but rather by whether the Church's "treatment" works or not. For me, it does--though I can respect if others have found various alternative "treatment" plans more preferred.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I will be the first to admit that Mormonism worked for me for 40 years. What mattered to me was not "does it work?" but "is it true?" Once I discovered that it wasn't true, after all, I realized that it was no more an effective treatment plan than any other. And since its truthfulness is bound up with its effectiveness, it lost a lot of its effectiveness for me once it was divorced from "truth."

I can appreciate that. It is just that my experience over the 50+ years of Church experience, has been quite different--at least in terms of how things have turned out for us in the recent past. I discovered early on that it was "true", and the more I have learn, the more confident I have become of its "truth", and as such, it has been more effective for me than other "treatment" plans I have considered. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-