Does Dr. Shades *really* believe "we all want the truth

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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

I submit that human beings - Mormon and non-Mormon - are socially, psychologically, emotionally, and intellectually such, that we very often don't want the truth at all. After all, truth can be the source of very great pain; and widespread recognition of this fact is why we have common phrases like "don't shoot the messenger", "he's in denial", "he can't see the truth even though it's staring him in the face", "the truth hurts", and "that hit too close to home".


This is all very true, but the Restored Gospel exists precisely to bring its adherents to a point at which this genuine human failing can be attenuated and finally purged completely. That is the purpose of the Gospel.


For if we are devout Mormons, say, we wind up with only two possible explanations for why only the tiniest fraction of those exposed to Joseph Smith's stories ever accept them as true (or continue to accept them for any length of time): cognitive defectiveness, or character defectiveness (that is, either people are too dumb to understand "the gospel", or they are too (insert perjorative here: "proud", "lazy", "desirous of worldly fame", "set in their ways", etc.)


While I know of no teaching in the Church claiming that anyone save the mentally retarded, are too "dumb" to understand the basic truths of the Gospel, your second point is well represented in the parabolic teaching of the sower.


And the "character defectiveness" explanation boils down to: "they just didn't want the truth". So devout Mormons are committed to the belief that the overwhelming majority of human beings do not want the truth (taking as a global population sample the vast percentage of people who decline to accept Joseph Smith's "true" stories once exposed to them, and the growing membership defection rates).


1. The overwhelming majority of human beings presently living have still yet to hear the Gospel preached, and many who have heard of the Church have still yet to hear the Gospel taught in a systematic, coherent manner.

2. Growing membership defections, to the extent this is a real phenomenon, has been prophesied as is an expected aspect of the "weeding out" phase of the Church in the last dispensation before the return of Jesus Christ. The wheat is being separated from the chaff within the Church and also outside of it. As an argument against the viability of the Church in the modern world, this is really kind of like throwing ping pong balls at a M-1 Abrams.

Billions of human beings, from all cultures, times, places, and ages, who died before the age of accountability, including those stillborn, or who died in infancy, are heirs to the Celestial Kingdom of God, and have heard and will hear the Gospel. I don't know what the retention rates for this class of the Father's children are in the spirit world, but one must assume its better than those within this veil of tears.


But secularists are committed to that same belief, including, I venture, Dr. Shades. For if we believe that we are the result of evolution, then we believe that certain traits and actions conferred survival advantage on our ancestors;


As the philosophical and scientific aspects of evolutionary theory now stand, it is more than possible for a faithful LDS to believe that evolution "produced" us in the sense of the biological/structural origin of our physical bodies and its systems, while rejecting the claim that the process itself was blind, random, unguided and undirected, or that there was no divine template upon which evolution works and upon which it is predicated. For secularists, evolution is a religious belief, comparable to the concepts of creation common to religious believers but lacking teleology. In this scientistic sense, Darwinism confers a patina of scientific justification for value relativism (and hence its overwhelming popularity), while it is only necessary that it convey information on the cause and effect dynamics inherent in the development of organic life. It is quite possible to see the teleology inherent in evolutionary processes and in the biomechanical design of organic systems. Secularists will not see such evidence because science and sceintism are only contingent siblings; they only appear to support and sustain each other under specific philosophical circumstances, and not under others.


and the important thing about actions is that they very often result from beliefs; and the important thing about those beliefs, from an evolutionary perspective, is that beliefs do not need to be true in order to lead to actions conferring survival advantage. Therefore, when by all accounts of evolution, the human brain has evolved such that it tends to attribute less importance to the truth of any particular claim, than to the benefits of believing that claim, so that in most clashes between the two, the most beneficial will win regardless of the truth, secularists simply cannot say that "we all want the truth". Rather, we tend to want what it is most beneficial to believe.


This is the kind of tautological, ex post facto thinking that has given evolution a bad name among many. The brain does not "appear to have evolved" to any specific intellectual or philosophical ends whatever, and there is not a shred of substantive empirical evidence (nor, it should be noted, could there be) that the complexities of our psychological and philosophical lives can be reduced to survival of the fittest cliches. Tal here, like most metaphysical materialists, conflates cause and effect; intermingling what the highly complex human actually does with its capacities and potentialities. The survival value of the human brain is simply in its complexity and sophistication. What it actually does, once this survival has been for all intents and purposes, secured (food, shelter, security from enemies, and a reliable environment within which DNA can be passed on to future generations) in the creating of systems of philosophy, religion, morality, and cosmology; the explanatory superstructure within which human beings take their bearings upon the universe for which evolution has nothing whatsoever to say. This is catastrophic news to the secularist because he needs evolution to explain away the other explanations, as they are always inserting themselves, in an unwanted manner, into his concept of himself as a little god who, atomized, autonomous, and self sufficient, is the "measure of all things". This is a textbook example of the degree to which, once the serious acknowledgment of God as a concept is lost, human beings sink to the deepest abyssal plains of reductionism, materialism, and metaphysical Sociobiology in an attempt to reintroduce teleology--meaning-- into a non-teleological world of their own creation.

Strangely, it never crosses the minds of secularists of this kind that the same concepts they use to deligitimize religion can be turned against their own system. Secularism is a belief system; an interpretational framework, and scientism, the religionification of science, is a philosophy constructed around certain idiosyncratic interpretations of scientific facts and evidence predicated upon other a priori assumptions about the world that guide mental processes and perceptual bias. In other words, religion.

So religion begets religion in an attempt to escape and destroy religion. Religion is not the Opium of the masses, but the attempt to circumvent it. Secularism is a religion that sets itself against traditional theistic religion but can in no way be thought of as "non-religious" simply because of its sociological function as gadfly to traditional forms of belief.


The very structure of scientific methodology tacitly concedes that often humans, at some level, don't want the truth.


There is no necessary reason to belive this is the case. The structure of scientific methodology need only impy that our perceptual limitations and subjective biases preclude, in many cases, accurate and clear interpretation of data--raw observational facts, especially at fine levels of detail. Scientific method is a technique of sequestering and attenuating, as much as possible, those biases and perceptual limitations. There is no implication of overt resistance to "truth" in scientific method (however, the present AGW debate does imply that, as Kuhn predicted, paradigms can have a monumental task shifting to take factual reality into account even when evidence is overwhelming that the standard paradigm is deficient. But this is a special case, is it not? AGW began as an ideological movement and became driven, as such do, by ideological passions. The geology, topography, and atmospheric dynamics of Mars are quite interesting, but have nothing to do with "the terrible questions" directly. Hence, debates regarding gaps in our understanding do not involve the same passions that imbue religion and politics. Science advances our understanding of Mars not because we don't want to know the truth about it, but precisely because we do and we want to be as accurate as we can be in that knowledge. The only people who do not want to know the truth about Mars are certain people who need to believe that there are pyramids and other structures on Mars and for whom geology and meteorology are passe.

Overt bias; bias that is conscious and cultivated, cannot be stopped by scientific method, as the work of individuals such as Margaret Meade, Sigmund Freud, Alfred Kinsey, Rachel Carson, Michael Mann, etc, and other specific individuals attests.


I could go on forever...but the point is, it is a very dubious (though laudable in its charity), claim that "we all want the truth". Why should most of us, anyway, when "matrixes" can be so pleasing to our vanity, so crucial to our identities and social relationships, so responsive to our most primal emotional needs, so (net) beneficial in terms of survival over eons?


Its true, again, that many of us do not want the truth, but you provide no epistemological frame of reference through which heads or tails can be made of our actual situation. Again, our complex brains and there capabilities are enough to insure survival (and survival, after all, is really noting more that guaranteeing subsistence and the passing on of genetic material). But what we actually concern ourselves with--teleology--has no survival value (of course, a committed Darwinist can concoct a hypothetical set of such, given the a priori assumption that evolution does, indeed, explain everything, but this is a circular exercise in intellectual curve fitting, not science) but does have value once survival is, as far as can be in a biological sphere, ensured. We want to know why we are here, where we came from, and where we are going (that is, "we", not just our organic structures). Neither science or evolutionary theory per se can answer those questions. The attempt to force them to do so is a religious project, not a scientific one.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Coggins7 wrote:1. The overwhelming majority of human beings presently living have still yet to hear the Gospel preached, and many who have heard of the Church have still yet to hear the Gospel taught in a systematic, coherent manner.


Oh, so now you're blaming the missionaries? Or are you blaming the correlation committee?

2. Growing membership defections, to the extent this is a real phenomenon, has been prophesied as is an expected aspect of the "weeding out" phase of the Church in the last dispensation before the return of Jesus Christ. The wheat is being separated from the chaff within the Church and also outside of it. As an argument against the viability of the Church in the modern world, this is really kind of like throwing ping pong balls at a M-1 Abrams.


Well, I'm glad you aren't blaming church leadership. That would mean we'd all have to rethink our idea of you.

Of course it's all the members' fault. Of COURSE!

Billions of human beings, from all cultures, times, places, and ages, who died before the age of accountability, including those stillborn, or who died in infancy, are heirs to the Celestial Kingdom of God, and have heard and will hear the Gospel. I don't know what the retention rates for this class of the Father's children are in the spirit world, but one must assume its better than those within this veil of tears.


And good luck to them. I hope all the girls realize what they're getting into, and how they're second class citizens of the CK, only there to pop out billions of spirit babies. Such a fulfilling existence.

The rest is blahblahblah.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

harmony wrote:
Coggins7 wrote:1. The overwhelming majority of human beings presently living have still yet to hear the Gospel preached, and many who have heard of the Church have still yet to hear the Gospel taught in a systematic, coherent manner.


Oh, so now you're blaming the missionaries? Or are you blaming the correlation committee?

2. Growing membership defections, to the extent this is a real phenomenon, has been prophesied as is an expected aspect of the "weeding out" phase of the Church in the last dispensation before the return of Jesus Christ. The wheat is being separated from the chaff within the Church and also outside of it. As an argument against the viability of the Church in the modern world, this is really kind of like throwing ping pong balls at a M-1 Abrams.


Well, I'm glad you aren't blaming church leadership. That would mean we'd all have to rethink our idea of you.

Of course it's all the members' fault. Of COURSE!

Billions of human beings, from all cultures, times, places, and ages, who died before the age of accountability, including those stillborn, or who died in infancy, are heirs to the Celestial Kingdom of God, and have heard and will hear the Gospel. I don't know what the retention rates for this class of the Father's children are in the spirit world, but one must assume its better than those within this veil of tears.


And good luck to them. I hope all the girls realize what they're getting into, and how they're second class citizens of the CK, only there to pop out billions of spirit babies. Such a fulfilling existence.

The rest is blahblahblah.




Vacuity. Utter, illimitable, self serving vacuity. But I expect nothing less from you Harmony, at this point.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Nightingale
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Post by _Nightingale »

solomarineris wrote:RFM brass treated you like a royalty,


Solo, you are a bright person. I don't get why you are so fixated on the "crimes" of RfM. In what way was Tal "treated like royalty"? Did his posts regularly violate board rules? (No). Did he argue with other posters and disrupt the board? (No). Did he mercilessly criticize Admin and fail to cooperate with them? (No). Did he write numerous posts about Mormonism and engage in discussion with fellow exmos? (Yes - as countless others are "allowed" to do). So please explain to me in what way Tal was "treated like royalty" there. Your constant criticisms about RfM are astounding to me and I find most of your comments to be inaccurate, not evidence-based, repetitious and never backed up by you when questioned. I find it really rude to use a free board and then whine about it elsewhere (and yes, I know that nobody else will necessarily care about what I think or like).


solomarineris wrote:..they [RfM] have this cult-worship of their 'Star posters', somehow they (like you) keep disappearing though. It's either you, (who gets tired of tirades) or them, who are control freaks, censor posts dime a dozen.


Many (most?) posters "disappear" as they move on past their initial stage of leaving Mormonism. The board's mandate, as clearly stated, (and the reason for the guidelines and how they are administered) is primarily to help Mormons who are questioning their faith and people who are leaving or who have left who are seeking information and contact with others who have been where they are. The board cannot be all things to all people and doesn't try to be. It is inevitable that many people will grow and change and move past it. That does not mean there is something wrong with the board. If it changed to match the changing needs of the growing exmo, then it wouldn't be true to its mandate of helping the next newbie exiter who comes along, right? As for the "control freaks" there, I have to say I have noticed a lot of your posts getting zapped, Solo, that is true. But it is also true that you often post against the rules (i.e., politics, arguments, criticizing Admin, etc). You'd get zapped even here for contravening board guidelines (lately, anyway) although zapped here means finding yourself in another section rather than getting deleted. There are guidelines everywhere, for good reason. Admin even here, that tried to be a "no rules" board, had to come to that conclusion. If you have a mandate you have to take steps to achieve it and maintain it. It's a great theory that participants will buy into the mandate and will police themselves but some just don't. They could ruin it for everyone if their behaviour causes the board to go down. I think that is all that is going on at RfM and at many other places too. That's how things work out for the best, it would seem.

As RfM has been around for over 10 years and has helped countless people I think they do most things right. Despite all the carping from vociferous critics, the board really shines when it comes to helping people in the midst of harsh struggles. There are a couple of heartrending threads going on right now about horrendous circumstances in people's lives (a lot caused by Mormonism, some not) and inevitably, other posters rally round and help people out by means of giving great advice, offers to email or call and even in real life help and friendship. It's amazing to me that TBMs see nothing but a "cesspool" and even more amazing that fellow exmos find nothing to extol but only something to criticize (excepting any that have had a negative experience with the board but I don't put you, Solo, in that category - maybe that is a misconception on my part).

As for the "cult worship" comment, that is something that TBM and/or troll type posters often say. That is perhaps why when you say that (over and over and over) on RfM, your post is likely nuked. Merely responding to a person's post is not "worship" of them. Often, every time a Benson or Bachman thread is up, every fellow poster who responds gets called a sychophant or something else equally derogatory, sometimes by Solo, often by trolls. Please explain to me how answering a Bachman post makes one a sychophant or a Tal-worshipper. Solo, you're on Tal's thread right now. Does that make you a cult follower of his? Sheesh.

To get on track with Tal's post, I don't have anything intellectual to say (how surprising, ha!). As for truth, I think it's a lot more subjective than we realize sometimes. I also think that not all that many people spend a lot of time analyzing and introspecting. It's also a given that once you believe a thing to be true you don't often revisit and re-evaluate it. That explains to me how people with religious beliefs just keep on believing, no matter what. In previous years, when I was a pretty intense BAC type Christian in what you'd likely see as a fundy denomination, I was quite shocked when a church friend (a physician) told me that if science disproved something about the Bible, he would have to re-evaluate his faith. My understanding of having faith was that we were supposed to believe "no matter what", that if science didn't prove something then science was mistaken or not keeping up or would come to see it eventually, etc. I would have said he was more fundy than I was so it was doubly shocking to me. He meant, say, if they found Noah's Ark and it was a rowboat or there was indisputable evidence that it didn't exist at all. (Can that be proved indisputably?) When you believe that faith that is essentially blind is a good thing, even a requirement to really prove your belief and loyalty to God, you may well not even look at or consider any opposing view as you already know it's wrong. I think that approach explains a lot about why many religious folk, at least, don't even hear you when you try to apply "logic" or science. I mean, that is not a guaranteed way to instantly get their attention and agreement. There is an "asked and answered" reaction (their belief is set so no need to go back and rethink it, in my observation). That's why it's fascinating to see what it is that gets people's attention and leads to them re-evaluating things and ultimately leaving their faith, certainly with Mormonism as it seems so all-encompassing, intertwining with family and culture as it does.

I don't know if that is "not wanting to know the truth" or more is a function of all those conditioning forces that Bob McCue mentions: evolutionary, social, biological, heritage, upbringing, etc, as well as one's personality and outlook. Under the spell of all of that, with religion thrown in and part of the mix (in a BIG way when it comes to Mormonism) it takes a lot to get people to look at things from a different perspective.

I think it would be a very good thing if kids were taught, by parents and in school, to develop good judgement and critical thinking skills. I didn't get to the developing judgement/thinking process part formally until post-secondary education. I always think it's too bad that it takes humans so long to grow up and get functional and then old age enters the frame. That is one big reason I always believed in an afterlife. What the heck is it all about if we get so smart so late and then die? It has to be for something, no?
_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

Tal Bachman wrote:Also by the way, if it matters (can't see how it does...), I haven't been over at RFM for like, two years. And who could blame me for posting here rather than there, with replies like yours? At least I've gotten a few laughs now!


Yah, I know u haven't been visiting RFM as of late. I do not blame you. If I remember correctly Nightingale usually pops up whenever RFM is mentioned. Susans apologist was not a surprise appearance.

Would you speak on the cult of RFM for a while? Does it have true utility?
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_Nightingale
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Post by _Nightingale »

Mercury:
"If I remember correctly Nightingale usually pops up whenever RFM is mentioned"

Not really Merc. It's mentioned (and denigrated) a lot and I more often let it go.

I'll tell you why I do speak up for it. Many of the most vocal critics (not TBMs surprisingly, but exmos) use it when it suits them (for advertising, when they have a problem, etc). Then other times they speak against it. If the criticism is valid in any way I don't argue against that. But to use it or have used it and benefited from it and then to slam it, often with inaccurate claims, is low. Do you not think?

It does irk me to see exmos chanting the same refrain as TBMs and trolls. On this and other things. I will speak up on that, yes.
_Boaz & Lidia
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Post by _Boaz & Lidia »

Coggins7 wrote:2. Growing membership defections, to the extent this is a real phenomenon, has been prophesied as is an expected aspect of the "weeding out" phase of the Church in the last dispensation before the return of Jesus Christ.
That already happened. You are part of the "weeded out" portion that followed Woodford.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Boaz & Lidia wrote:
Coggins7 wrote:2. Growing membership defections, to the extent this is a real phenomenon, has been prophesied as is an expected aspect of the "weeding out" phase of the Church in the last dispensation before the return of Jesus Christ.
That already happened. You are part of the "weeded out" portion that followed Woodford.



Anything substantive to add?
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_solomarineris
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Post by _solomarineris »

Nightingale wrote:
solomarineris wrote:RFM brass treated you like a royalty,


Solo, you are a bright person. I don't get why you are so fixated on the "crimes" of RfM. In what way was Tal "treated like royalty"? Did his posts regularly violate board rules? (No). Did he argue with other posters and disrupt the board? (No). Did he mercilessly criticize Admin and fail to cooperate with them? (No). Did he write numerous posts about Mormonism and engage in discussion with fellow exmos? (Yes - as countless others are "allowed" to do). So please explain to me in what way Tal was "treated like royalty" there. Your constant criticisms about RfM are astounding to me and I find most of your comments to be inaccurate, not evidence-based, repetitious and never backed up by you when questioned. I find it really rude to use a free board and then whine about it elsewhere (and yes, I know that nobody else will necessarily care about what I think or like).


solomarineris wrote:..they [RfM] have this cult-worship of their 'Star posters', somehow they (like you) keep disappearing though. It's either you, (who gets tired of tirades) or them, who are control freaks, censor posts dime a dozen.


Many (most?) posters "disappear" as they move on past their initial stage of leaving Mormonism. The board's mandate, as clearly stated, (and the reason for the guidelines and how they are administered) is primarily to help Mormons who are questioning their faith and people who are leaving or who have left who are seeking information and contact with others who have been where they are. The board cannot be all things to all people and doesn't try to be. It is inevitable that many people will grow and change and move past it. That does not mean there is something wrong with the board. If it changed to match the changing needs of the growing exmo, then it wouldn't be true to its mandate of helping the next newbie exiter who comes along, right? As for the "control freaks" there, I have to say I have noticed a lot of your posts getting zapped, Solo, that is true. But it is also true that you often post against the rules (I.e., politics, arguments, criticizing Admin, etc). You'd get zapped even here for contravening board guidelines (lately, anyway) although zapped here means finding yourself in another section rather than getting deleted. There are guidelines everywhere, for good reason. Admin even here, that tried to be a "no rules" board, had to come to that conclusion. If you have a mandate you have to take steps to achieve it and maintain it. It's a great theory that participants will buy into the mandate and will police themselves but some just don't. They could ruin it for everyone if their behaviour causes the board to go down. I think that is all that is going on at RfM and at many other places too. That's how things work out for the best, it would seem.

As RfM has been around for over 10 years and has helped countless people I think they do most things right. Despite all the carping from vociferous critics, the board really shines when it comes to helping people in the midst of harsh struggles. There are a couple of heartrending threads going on right now about horrendous circumstances in people's lives (a lot caused by Mormonism, some not) and inevitably, other posters rally round and help people out by means of giving great advice, offers to email or call and even in real life help and friendship. It's amazing to me that TBMs see nothing but a "cesspool" and even more amazing that fellow exmos find nothing to extol but only something to criticize (excepting any that have had a negative experience with the board but I don't put you, Solo, in that category - maybe that is a misconception on my part).

As for the "cult worship" comment, that is something that TBM and/or troll type posters often say. That is perhaps why when you say that (over and over and over) on RfM, your post is likely nuked. Merely responding to a person's post is not "worship" of them. Often, every time a Benson or Bachman thread is up, every fellow poster who responds gets called a sychophant or something else equally derogatory, sometimes by Solo, often by trolls. Please explain to me how answering a Bachman post makes one a sychophant or a Tal-worshipper. Solo, you're on Tal's thread right now. Does that make you a cult follower of his? Sheesh.

To get on track with Tal's post, I don't have anything intellectual to say (how surprising, ha!). As for truth, I think it's a lot more subjective than we realize sometimes. I also think that not all that many people spend a lot of time analyzing and introspecting. It's also a given that once you believe a thing to be true you don't often revisit and re-evaluate it. That explains to me how people with religious beliefs just keep on believing, no matter what. In previous years, when I was a pretty intense BAC type Christian in what you'd likely see as a fundy denomination, I was quite shocked when a church friend (a physician) told me that if science disproved something about the Bible, he would have to re-evaluate his faith. My understanding of having faith was that we were supposed to believe "no matter what", that if science didn't prove something then science was mistaken or not keeping up or would come to see it eventually, etc. I would have said he was more fundy than I was so it was doubly shocking to me. He meant, say, if they found Noah's Ark and it was a rowboat or there was indisputable evidence that it didn't exist at all. (Can that be proved indisputably?) When you believe that faith that is essentially blind is a good thing, even a requirement to really prove your belief and loyalty to God, you may well not even look at or consider any opposing view as you already know it's wrong. I think that approach explains a lot about why many religious folk, at least, don't even hear you when you try to apply "logic" or science. I mean, that is not a guaranteed way to instantly get their attention and agreement. There is an "asked and answered" reaction (their belief is set so no need to go back and rethink it, in my observation). That's why it's fascinating to see what it is that gets people's attention and leads to them re-evaluating things and ultimately leaving their faith, certainly with Mormonism as it seems so all-encompassing, intertwining with family and culture as it does.

I don't know if that is "not wanting to know the truth" or more is a function of all those conditioning forces that Bob McCue mentions: evolutionary, social, biological, heritage, upbringing, etc, as well as one's personality and outlook. Under the spell of all of that, with religion thrown in and part of the mix (in a BIG way when it comes to Mormonism) it takes a lot to get people to look at things from a different perspective.

I think it would be a very good thing if kids were taught, by parents and in school, to develop good judgement and critical thinking skills. I didn't get to the developing judgement/thinking process part formally until post-secondary education. I always think it's too bad that it takes humans so long to grow up and get functional and then old age enters the frame. That is one big reason I always believed in an afterlife. What the heck is it all about if we get so smart so late and then die? It has to be for something, no?


Nightingale,
You're damn right, I'm a bright person. I don't tolerate censorship at any level. Especially the most harmless ones getting scratched by lower minds. I see absolutely no reason to scratching someone's innocent thought with no good reason.
As for "Royalty" epiteth. I stand by it. I did not accuse them being kings & Queens of the board, Even that status does not prevent someone (as reasonable as Steve B.) to be deleted and racist posts of Cheryl let it go.

FYI, I stand by even those people who complain some people are treated like royalty. What kinda idiocy rules their mind to erase someone's reasonable post?
_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

Nightingale wrote:
It does irk me to see exmos chanting the same refrain as TBMs and trolls. On this and other things. I will speak up on that, yes.


We chant it because we see the same controlled artificial environment at RFM that we did in the church. RFM is triage for new exmos but its too much of a controlled environment. I think Stan Marsh can attest to how long it takes for a thread to get banned.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
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