A "Female Problem"?

[_ajax18]

Political suicide? The war still needs to be fought. I don't think for one minute that Hillary will bring the troops home any faster than George Bush. The democrats have controlled the senate and they could have brought the troops home if they really wanted that. They don't really want that. They're just capitalizing on a chance to criticize the current president for something that has caused the people a lot of suffering.

I personally would go straight to atom bombs but since nobody is willing to do that, we need young people to go over and die in an effort to keep the situation from "getting worse." People aren't going to sign up for that voluntarily forever.

[_moksha]

In contemporary America, without an egregious redefinition of the spectrum of views on gender roles, this isn't accurate. They're progressive for LDS. For America in general, this is conventional wisdom. While "progressive" is a synonym of "leftist" when used in a certain context, it doesn't really translate here.

Keep up the sophisticated pose Allusion. The term "Progressive" has been used historically to circumscribe everything on the left from various form of democratic socialism to the most extreme forms of utopian collectivism (revolutionary Marxism/Leninism). Progressivism is Leftism, in any western context.

How transparent you really are, Allusion.

So in this sense, Leftism describes whatever you disagree with?

[_Imapiratewasher]

Is this a joke? Woman show more responsibility than men!!! OMGosh. Why shouldn't women work? We are equals and should be treated that way. I am the only Girl in my Physics group, it is seen as a guys subject because girls arent clever enough to do it. I was automatically labelled as intellegent just because I study Physics. I am far from it and I do not believe one has to be intellegent to study anything. I also do not believe man learn far better than women, and that video is stupid!!!!!!!

[_truth dancer]

Hey Ajax,

As I said, it seems there are men who don't want to give up their power for equality; their control for decency. They still see woman as the enemy trying to thwart their authority.

I think it is about ego... moving into a world where men and women are equal feels threatening.

Just to be clear, there is no anger on my part nor do I dislike Muslims, nor is my perspective a "generational" thing. Perhaps you need to expand your understanding beyond your particular experiences so you can grasp the reality of our human world.

As Harmony pointed out, we are talking about the history of humankind. It is only very recently that women (for the most part) have had any rights at all. Do you understand this? Women were owned, enslaved, bought and sold. (They still are in many places).

No one here is blaming one's ancestors for the current situation, (it is what it is, evolution happened), or angry at anyone... you totally misunderstand. There is a difference between wanting restitution for past inhumane treatment and wanting humankind to embrace a world of respect and equality.

It has always been those men and women whose consciousness has been more caring, compassionate, and decent who have felt the sense of equality and concern for their fellow human beings.

I know quite a few men and women who would be considered feminists and I have yet to know one who wants anything other than women and men to experience equality and respect. You seem to have some very odd sense that those who believe women are fully human and deserve equal rights with men are somehow Satan's minions out to destroy the egos of men and take away their power.

I would respectfully suggest you may want to step back and think about why it is that some men are unwilling to think of women as fully human. What is it about a woman that repulses you or elicits such extreme anger? What is so fragile in your life that the idea of women having equality creates such hostility?

I'm not asking you to answer here, just maybe reflect on why you hold women as the enemy, or why you believe they should remain powerless or with less opportunity and privilege.

In terms of your generation... I know quite a few young men and women (have worked with literally hundreds), and my impression is that young men are much more understanding toward women then are many older men. I know few young men who don't fully believe women should have the same rights as men... in fact I can't think of a one at the moment other than you. I think growing up in a world where men stay at home, share responsibilities of care, and where women are doctors, politicians, lawyers, CEOs, are helping them understand women are human and capable of more than childbearing, house cleaning, and cooking.

:-)

~dancer~

[_EAllusion]

The term "progressive" can and does simply mean advancing towards a better set of conditions. The term is used to that end in all manner of contexts, often with the connotation of more liberal. For instance, the opening post in this thread. Leftists sometimes call themselves progressives because that's how they think of the political reform they seek and because it harkons to the progressive politics at the turn of the last century which they admire. In context here, it is just a reference to LDS women who hold views that most of America absorbed years ago. There is nothing wrong with calling Saudi women who think they ought to be able to show their face in public progressive without also implying they are leftists per the American political spectrum. There's nothing "leftist" about thinking men and women should have equal access to rights and roles in society as their talents and desires allow - that "Housework is something that grownups do and that children learn by example and instruction. Unfortunately, women and girls still perform the bulk of the world's low-paid and unpaid labor, including housework—often at the expense of their own education, leadership, creativity, health, and well-being. Men and boys who share care-work and household responsibilities make it possible for all family members to live happier, more fulfilling lives." The changes that took place in the wake of the second wave of feminism in the US must've been lost on you. Just because they missed a lot of the LDS community doesn't mean you can't be aware of them.

[_Some Schmo]

Wow… sometimes I forget just how misogynistic Mormon men can be. It makes you wonder, does the church encourage it or do these kinds of men gravitate toward the church because of it. A little of both, I imagine.

This thread is, well, incredible, to say the least, given that the year is 2008. Feels like I just stepped into a time machine back to the mid 70’s.

And Mormons wonder why they're criticized... At least Jason seems enlightened.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Schmo... :-)

Yeah, I'm still shaking my head.

I grew up in a home where my parents were truly equal partners, very enlightened and way ahead of their time, in my opinion,

I didn't even know about the whole "women should stay at home" thing until I joined the church. Both my parents were very successful and I never ever recall any of the weirdness I sometimes see in some men on LDS MBs. I should be used to it but it still astounds me.

:-)

~dancer~

[_ajax18]

There is a difference between wanting restitution for past inhumane treatment and wanting humankind to embrace a world of respect and equality.

Really. Please explain. To me it seems like the world is out to compensate history by taking it out on white men.

I would respectfully suggest you may want to step back and think about why it is that some men are unwilling to think of women as fully human. What is it about a woman that repulses you or elicits such extreme anger? What is so fragile in your life that the idea of women having equality creates such hostility?

I know quite a few young men and women (have worked with literally hundreds), and my impression is that young men are much more understanding toward women then are many older men. I know few young men who don't fully believe women should have the same rights as men... in fact I can't think of a one at the moment other than you.

My contention is that the feminist idea of equality is actually inequality against men. If this means I don't believe in equality, than maybe we need to hash out exactly what and how you're counting it. I've been through this before with many feminist. I've never gotten one to explain her counting system and idea of fairness, nor have I gotten one to recognize my own grievances, yet they think I should recognize their grievances and count it up in the fairness equation. That tells me that they're not really concerned with fairness. They just want to get what they want.

I'm actually all for fairness. Just show me how it's fair, cause I don't see it as fair. And if it's not fair, count on me fighting against it. I bear no shame in demanding fairness. Nor do I think I owe anyone anything because I was born a white male. Do you think I do? Your statment that I don't believe in equality in my view is simply a miscalculation.

[_ajax18]

Wow… sometimes I forget just how misogynistic Mormon men can be. It makes you wonder, does the church encourage it or do these kinds of men gravitate toward the church because of it. A little of both, I imagine.

This thread is, well, incredible, to say the least, given that the year is 2008. Feels like I just stepped into a time machine back to the mid 70’s.

And Mormons wonder why they're criticized... At least Jason seems enlightened.

Look Schmo, don't equate me with Mormon men. I'm really not representative of that. I'm not really active anymore and the Church shouldn't be to blame for me wanting equality for men as well as women. That's my concern, not the Church's. It's also my fight, not a fight that the Church wants to take on and that's fine. It's not a fight most men want to take on. As long as they get sex, you can treat them however you want. I'm not like that, but I'm in a minority.

No Mormon man is as open and contentious as I am for equal rights for men. Actually most Mormon men are willing to forfeit their status as equal partners because they think it's best for the Church. I don't really care what's better for the Church when I say these things. I'm a human being. I seek justice for myself, and I will appeal to God for that justice as well.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Ajax,

There is a difference between wanting restitution for past inhumane treatment and wanting humankind to embrace a world of respect and equality.

Really. Please explain. To me it seems like the world is out to compensate history by taking it out on white men.

I do not know of any feminist who thinks there is some need or reason for restitution or retaliation because of the treatment of women over the past five thousand years. I do know many men and women who have a consciousness that moves them toward equality... treating women as human beings deserving of the same rights, opportunities, and privileges as those human beings with different body parts.

You seem to reject this and have quite an animosity toward women, and their desire to be viewed and treated with equality. I'm wondering why.

I would respectfully suggest you may want to step back and think about why it is that some men are unwilling to think of women as fully human. What is it about a woman that repulses you or elicits such extreme anger? What is so fragile in your life that the idea of women having equality creates such hostility?

I know quite a few young men and women (have worked with literally hundreds), and my impression is that young men are much more understanding toward women then are many older men. I know few young men who don't fully believe women should have the same rights as men... in fact I can't think of a one at the moment other than you.

My contention is that the feminist idea of equality is actually inequality against men.

I am unaware of this... I have never seen, heard or experienced this.

If this means I don't believe in equality, than maybe we need to hash out exactly what and how you're counting it. I've been through this before with many feminist. I've never gotten one to explain her counting system and idea of fairness, nor have I gotten one to recognize my own grievances, yet they think I should recognize their grievances and count it up in the fairness equation. That tells me that they're not really concerned with fairness. They just want to get what they want.

I'm actually all for fairness. Just show me how it's fair, cause I don't see it as fair.

What do you see as amiss? Is it fair that women can vote? Get an education? Get paid equally for the same job? Is it fair that a woman can ask for a divorce? Send a rapist husband to jail? Play in a symphony? Own their own body? Speak in public? Be a pastor of a church? Be the Governor? CEO?

And if it's not fair, count on me fighting against it. I bear no shame in demanding fairness. Nor do I think I owe anyone anything because I was born a white male. Do you think I do? Your statment that I don't believe in equality in my view is simply a miscalculation.

Of course I do not think you owe anyone something because you are a white male. Hmmm, not sure where this comes from. I have a white male husband, father, brothers, sons, friends, co-workers. They are great men who all believe in equality. There is none of this nonsense that women are second class citizens, or restricted from some privileges because of their form, or limited because of their sex, or deemed less than men. None of it.

Again, I'm wondering from where comes your anger and animosity?

~dancer~