truth dancer wrote:Well, since no one has come forth to confirm...I'll just assume that at least some of those who covenanted to continue the teaching until the forth generation are actually doing so and holding to their covenant, hence, the teaching is alive and well with some members.
:-(
Sounds creepy.
td
Let's examine why I said you're mad again. Let's look at the evidence in question. You first present evidence using the word 'since' to show that you are basing your conclusion based on the information. The information is that no one has come forth to confirm your theory. Then you use the evidence that no one confirms your statement to conclude that it is true. This is madness.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
truth dancer wrote:Evidently the vengeance oaths ended in 1927, and the other changes took place in 1990.
However, I am thinking the vengeance oaths are still being taught, perhaps in homes?
Anyone know?
I suppose those who are receiving these teachings would not be forthcoming but if thousands of people covenanted to teach these teachings to the third and fourth generation, they must be still taught.
You are correct that the oath of vengeance was not removed from the endowment ceremony until 1927 (I think BY included it in the late 1840's or early 1850's). While it was in the form of a "prayer," JDLee expressly referred to the oath as a reason for his and others' actions at MMM (i.e., seeing themselves as the instrument of God to bring the "prayer" to fruition). I don't see how anyone (including Turley, et al.) can discuss the MMM without including the oath of vengeance.
EDITED TO ADD:
by the way, according to rpcman's old page, here is the wording of the oath:
"You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will pray and never cease to pray to Almighty God to avenge the blood of the prophets upon this nation, and that you will teach the same to your children and to your children's children unto the third and fourth generation."
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
Wow... you think it is mad to think members take their temple covenants seriously?
OK.. whatever.
If an individual did not make the covenant, then they would not be breaking it by not teaching their kids regardless of what their recent ancestors covenanted to. In other words, the first generation that was not required to take such a covenant would not be required to teach this to their kids regardless if they were the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th generation of those that had.
"Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis" - Laplace
I'm mad for assuming faithful members take their temple oaths seriously.
Yeah... ok Nehor. Fine.
td
Yes, restating what you said once before instead of addressing me is a good dodge.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Wow... you think it is mad to think members take their temple covenants seriously?
OK.. whatever.
If an individual did not make the covenant, then they would not be breaking it by not teaching their kids regardless of what their recent ancestors covenanted to. In other words, the first generation that was not required to take such a covenant would not be required to teach this to their kids regardless if they were the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th generation of those that had.
Yeah, but I'm thinking at least some of those older people who did make the covenant upheld it and did teach it to their children, their grandchildren, and so forth... which means there are likely people alive who were taught this.
In other words, if a twenty-five year old went through the temple in 1925 and took the oath and covenant, and taught it to their children, lets say who were born in 1930, and their grandchildren who were born in 1955, these people would only be 53... (great grandchildren may be only twenty or thirty or so).
td
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj