Presentism and the Persecutors of the Early Saints

[_Gadianton Plumber]

Huh?

1. Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, commanded to implement polygamy. Evidence: second hand testimony of a vision by the good prophet himself.

2. Joseph Smith was diddling a 14 year old and this is why he was tarred and feathered. Evidence: second hand testimony of the diddling.

Whyme, you accept the first but not the second? And you say you are not dogmatic?

Huh?

[_Sethbag]

There is also another interpretation. The persecutions were Satanic in origin. Satan hardened the hearts of men and women and they attacked the LDS church. But through perseverance and fortitude the early saints overcame adversity and truimphed. I think that that is a better understanding than your interpretation.

This is an absolutely classic persecution complex answer. And guess what? The LDS Church is not even unique in such hogwash. Persecution complex worldviews are rife amongst new religious movements, and religions in general. Creating an "us vs. them" mentality is a good way to rally the troops around the central power of the movement. Making people feel like they are under attack leads the followers to be more susceptible to the commands and directives of the leadership, just like good soldiers following their officers in war.

If you want good examples of "Satan is attacking us!" persecution mythology, you should really look at Jehovah's Witnesses literature. It's even worse than the LDS culture of "the World is after us". The LDS say it, and some believe it more strongly than others. JWs live under that cloud every single day.

Because, the LDS church has prospered against all adversity. And god has shown favor towards it.

So has the Church of Scientology. So has Islam. So has Roman Catholicism. So have Jehovah's Witnesses. For Heaven's sake, so has the mafia.

The fact that the LDS church has prospered against all adversity says something about the faith meme, but it does not bear at all on the question of the church's truth claims. The connection between the church's continued existence and its truth claims is a total non sequitur.

And how has God shown favor on the LDS Church? What evidence do you have that the putative Creator of the Universe has had anything at all to do with this organization? Is it all the severed limbs that Mormon Elders routinely heal by wielding the power of the Creator of the Universe?

[_why me]

This is an absolutely classic persecution complex answer. And guess what? The LDS Church is not even unique in such hogwash. Persecution complex worldviews are rife amongst new religious movements, and religions in general. Creating an "us vs. them" mentality is a good way to rally the troops around the central power of the movement. Making people feel like they are under attack leads the followers to be more susceptible to the commands and directives of the leadership, just like good soldiers following their officers in war.

If you want good examples of "Satan is attacking us!" persecution mythology, you should really look at Jehovah's Witnesses literature. It's even worse than the LDS culture of "the World is after us". The LDS say it, and some believe it more strongly than others. JWs live under that cloud every single day.

Because, the LDS church has prospered against all adversity. And god has shown favor towards it.

So has the Church of Scientology. So has Islam. So has Roman Catholicism. So have Jehovah's Witnesses. For Heaven's sake, so has the mafia.

The fact that the LDS church has prospered against all adversity says something about the faith meme, but it does not bear at all on the question of the church's truth claims. The connection between the church's continued existence and its truth claims is a total non sequitur.

And how has God shown favor on the LDS Church? What evidence do you have that the putative Creator of the Universe has had anything at all to do with this organization? Is it all the severed limbs that Mormon Elders routinely heal by wielding the power of the Creator of the Universe?

Well, let me put it this way: from a humble beginning in New York to persecution soon after the church being organized...large migration moves to worship freely, attacked by mobs wherever the LDS went. Apostacy (like now) by former members who attempted to destroy the church (like now) more persecution....the murder of its leader and his brother...divisions after the murder about leadership and more migration farther west...and success. Either it was with god's help or it was a case of extreme luck. And yes, the persecution still exists...just look at the internet. And yet, the LDS church offers a good value structure, healthy living and a spiritual life. It is not an evil organization. But...for some strange reason, people (critics) cannot leave it alone.

Even the murderers of Joseph Smith thought that the LDS church would fall and melt into the earth. But...they were unpleasantly surprised. I gave you a different viewpoint from your own. Mine is just as valid unless you have proof otherwise.

[_BishopRic]

And yet, the LDS church offers a good value structure, healthy living and a spiritual life. It is not an evil organization. But...for some strange reason, people (critics) cannot leave it alone.

Aww, the Mormon lens of Why Me still focuses only on Moroni! Taking the blinders off gives a very different picture.

To a Mormon, the church offers what he says. But I see a different result. The judgmental, separation of people (gays bad, exmormons bad, wine-drinkers bad, etc) is the furthest thing possible from a "good value structure." And with the extremely high rankings of prescription drug abuse, depression and suicide, I don't know how you can proclaim the culture as "healthy," unless you don't read the studies. I'm waiting for the revelation that encourages healthy intake of tea, coffee and red wine, now that we know it is good for us.

And the latest reports show that the church numbers are actually decreasing: http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2 ... ARIS_N.htm. But as usual, I'm sure the Why Me's of the church have the excuse "Satan is working hard in the latter days...!"

But it might be for these reasons that some continue to blow the whistle. Many reasonable people see the "evil" nature of the church, and choose true spirituality without it.

[_why me]

And yet, the LDS church offers a good value structure, healthy living and a spiritual life. It is not an evil organization. But...for some strange reason, people (critics) cannot leave it alone.

Aww, the Mormon lens of Why Me still focuses only on Moroni! Taking the blinders off gives a very different picture.

To a Mormon, the church offers what he says. But I see a different result. The judgmental, separation of people (gays bad, exmormons bad, wine-drinkers bad, etc) is the furthest thing possible from a "good value structure." And with the extremely high rankings of prescription drug abuse, depression and suicide, I don't know how you can proclaim the culture as "healthy," unless you don't read the studies. I'm waiting for the revelation that encourages healthy intake of tea, coffee and red wine, now that we know it is good for us.

And the latest reports show that the church numbers are actually decreasing: http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2 ... ARIS_N.htm. But as usual, I'm sure the Why Me's of the church have the excuse "Satan is working hard in the latter days...!"

But it might be for these reasons that some continue to blow the whistle. Many reasonable people see the "evil" nature of the church, and choose true spirituality without it.

Aww...the postmormon lens of BishopRic still seeing the LDS church as a Utah church. Well, BishopRic the LDS church is a worldwide church with many different kinds of individuals making up its membership from diverse political and cultural backgrounds. For example, I know green Mormons, social democratic Mormons, conservative Mormons, democrat Mormons and republican Mormons.

But the LDS church does take a stand on certain issues that have a moral overtone. Nothing wrong with that. Now you may not like the LDS church's stances on certain issues, which gives you a wonderful sound board to voice your frustration with the LDS church. But I have to say that if the LDS church is a christian church, it must choose what it perceives to be the right when it comes to moral issues and questions.

Is church membership declining? Maybe. But the LDS church is not a popularity contest like some churches. It has a set of beliefs which it stands by and perhaps these beliefs are not popular but...it takes guts to stand up and say something that is not popular with the secular world.

And I have never met an alcoholic who did not start out without that first drink.

[_BishopRic]

But the LDS church does take a stand on certain issues that have a moral overtone.

As do I.

You see WhyMe, your definition of morals are quite different than mine -- and I would venture to say, most of the non-Mormons of the world. Of course "you" take a stand on something you se as "sin." That's why we've had such bizarre liquor laws here in Utah. But I submit that the church' stand on most issues lately is quite immoral.

By morality, I mean equal rights for all. In fact, you call it "agency," but you don't live it. There is no logical way to twist your stance against gay marriage any way but what it is. Immoral.

Now again, through your Mormon lens, you see gay behavior as disgusting. But remember from your primary story days of the pre-existence, there was only one who tried to make everybody behave "right"

And he didn't get chosen.

So you don't see the irony in "your position" of allowing agency for the gay folks?

[_Brackite]

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... s_polygamy

From that Web Site Page:

Jacob 2:30 is the key verse for understanding why Mormons believe that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other nineteenth-century Mormons were justified in their practice of polygamy, but that this is the exception to the Lord's law, not the rule.... Mormons believe that the period when polygamy was publicly sanctioned (1852–1890)—and the longer period in which it was privately approved (the early 1830s to 1904)—were exceptions to God's basic law that Jacob spelled out in verse 27.[1]

( Bold Emphasis Mine. )



From Brigham Young:

Those who are acquainted with the history of the world are not ignorant that polygamy has always been the general rule and monogamy the exception.

( Journal of Discourses, Volume #11. )



Is this a Contradiction???

[_JohnStuartMill]

why me:

Are we guilty of presentism when we condemn those mobs and vigilantes and purveyors of "frontier justice" that gave the early members of the Church such a hard time? These were, after all, simply men of their time, place, and culture. It would be intellectually dishonest to hold them to the enlightened standards of our day.

Right?

Actually, presentism exists on this board only when it favors the critics. But yes, you guys are guilty of presentism on this board. And many are guilty of shock and awe presentism: Hey...!!! Lookie here....Joseph did that and Joseph did this....And BY did that and said that...golley the church ain't't true. type of posts.

Well, from some of those, it actually does deductively follow that the Church isn't true.

P1: When they are speaking as such, prophets of God do not say anything untrue.
P2: If the President of a Church is not a true prophet, then the Church is not true.
P3: Brigham Young, the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, was speaking as a prophet of God when he said that the penalty for interracial marriage would always be death on the spot.
P4: The penalty for interracial marriage is not currently death on the spot.

C1: Brigham Young said something untrue while speaking as a prophet of God. (P3, P4)
C2: Brigham Young was not a prophet of God. (C1, P1)
C3: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not true. (C2, P2)[/quote]

[_Brackite]

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... s_polygamy

From That Web Site Page Again:

Jacob 2:30 is the key verse for understanding why Mormons believe that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other nineteenth-century Mormons were justified in their practice of polygamy, but that this is the exception to the Lord's law, not the rule.... Mormons believe that the period when polygamy was publicly sanctioned (1852–1890)—and the longer period in which it was privately approved (the early 1830s to 1904)—were exceptions to God's basic law that Jacob spelled out in verse 27.[1]

Even if they are right about their interpretation of Jacob Chapter Two, Verse 30, it still does Not explain away the Contradiction between Jacob Chapter Two, Verses 23 and 24, and Doctrine and Covenants Section 132, Verse One, and Verses 38 and 39.

First, Here is Doctrine and Covenants Section 132, Verse One, and Verses 38 and 39:

Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:1, & 38 & 39:

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—

...

38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

39 David's wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

Now, Here is Jacob Chapter Two, Verse Seven:

Jacob 2:7:

[7] And also it grieveth me that I must use so much boldness of speech concerning you, before your wives and your children, many of whose feelings are exceedingly tender and chaste and delicate before God, which thing is pleasing unto God;

And, Here is Jacob Chapter Two, Verses 23 and 24:

Jacob 2:23 & 24:

[23] But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

[24] Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

It was Not how or the way how King David and King Solomon had many wives and concubines that was abominable before the Lord God, It is that they just truly actually in fact had many wives and concubines, which was indeed truly abominable before the Lord God. This interpretation is very, very much in harmony with the obvious interpretation of Jacob 2:7, which does Not mean it was the how or the way how the wives' and children's feelings are exceedingly tender and chaste and delicate before God, it means exactly from what it states, is that, the wives, and children's feelings are indeed truly exceedingly tender and chaste and delicate before the Lord God. King David And King Solomon in fact truly having many wives and concubines, by itself, is that which was indeed truly abominable before the Lord God.

Conclusion: Jacob Chapter Two, Verses 23 and 24, does indeed truly Contradicts Doctrine and Covenants Section 132, Verse One, and Verses 38 and 39.

[_DarkHelmet]

Well, BishopRic the LDS church is a worldwide church with many different kinds of individuals making up its membership from diverse political and cultural backgrounds.

LOL. you sound like a missionary selling the church to people who've never been inside an LDS building. The LDS church is a Utah church. It's influence is primarily in Utah, and it also carries some influence in Arizona and Idaho. You might be able to get away with calling it a Western US church. But to call it a worldwide church with all kinds of culture and diverse political opinions is laughable. Have you ever been inside a church building? Church buildings outside Utah are simply remote Utah offices, with very little influence on their community. The stream of information, instructions, and money flows between SLC and the remote offices. It is simply a Utah church.