Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

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_Sethbag
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Re: Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

Post by _Sethbag »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Sethbag wrote:The personal vendettas are one aspect of this exchange between believers and critics which I just cannot stand.

You would really enjoy being on the receiving end of it, day in and day out, for three years.

Well, I can empathize, and I do speak against it, which is probably all I can do personally.

Just noticed your signature. I'm happy to report that you're wrong.

Only until they figure it out. Then I'm right. :sad:
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_RockSlider
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Re: Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

Post by _RockSlider »

StructureCop:

Wow ... Thank you for taking the time to post that link ... I was glued to all 4 parts.

What a shame, that I along with others that bought the myth ... have missed out on so much.

once again, thank you for posting that link for me
_wenglund
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Re: Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

Post by _wenglund »

StructureCop wrote:Question: What is the net effect of FARMS-type apologetics, scholarship or research on the body of the Church at large or on official pronouncements or policies of Church leadership?

Hypothesis: The number of Church members who subscribe or follow FARMS research/publications remains relatively limited. Some theories originating with FARMS publications make their way into the mainstream and become receive an official or folk status as an accepted interpretation of Mormon beliefs, but the vast majority only gain popularity among apologetic circles. Some Church membership may even regard FARMS or apologists with suspicion because they propose alternative interpretations of traditional LDS narratives or doctrines.

Church leadership may occasionally take FARMS theories into consideration, but such considerations are rarely articulated in "official" pronouncements, manuals, or other publications. I think Church leadership appreciates FARMS scholars' work generally.

Obviously there are some here who are more connected to the apologetics and Church leadership communities who may be able to clear up some of this if I am mistaken.


I don't know that you would get much disagreement from apologists regarding your hypothesis.

Where we may disagree, though, with some people on this thread, is why apologetics has such a nominal effect on LDS leadership and membership.

Some have suggested that it is because LDS apologetics tends to be weak and unsatisfactory even deleterious to wavering LDS faith. And, this may well be true at least in the cases of those making the suggestion.

However, I question whether this reason applies much, if at all, to Church leaders or to members in general. To me, the more likely explanation for the nominal effect of apologetics is because, by and large, the issues raised by critics and doubters, and addressed by apologetics, tend not to be directly relevant to the intents and purposes of the restored gospel--i.e. growth in faith towards becoming like Christ, unto a fullness of joy and love one with another. They tend to fall outside the three-fold mission of the Church and the normal bounds and proposed path of day-to-day spiritual development.

While critic and apologist may wrangle over hemispheric or limit geography for the Book of Mormon, or whether Joseph Smith consummated his plural marriages, or if the Book of Abraham was translated from the extant papyri, etc. etc., the general membership, with the encouragement of the leaders, are incline towards being rightly concerned with whether they are raising their children right, have sufficiently met their leadership obligations, have done enough service to their fellow man, are reading the scriptures often enough, praying sincerely, attending the temple frequently, are mindful of the ancestors, etc. etc. For good reason, the leaders and members really haven't the need or the time to be bothered with most, if not all, of the issues raised on this and other boards frequented by apologists.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
"Why should I care about being consistent?" --Mister Scratch (MD, '08)
_Morrissey
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Re: Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

Post by _Morrissey »

wenglund wrote:
StructureCop wrote:Question: What is the net effect of FARMS-type apologetics, scholarship or research on the body of the Church at large or on official pronouncements or policies of Church leadership?

Hypothesis: The number of Church members who subscribe or follow FARMS research/publications remains relatively limited. Some theories originating with FARMS publications make their way into the mainstream and become receive an official or folk status as an accepted interpretation of Mormon beliefs, but the vast majority only gain popularity among apologetic circles. Some Church membership may even regard FARMS or apologists with suspicion because they propose alternative interpretations of traditional LDS narratives or doctrines.

Church leadership may occasionally take FARMS theories into consideration, but such considerations are rarely articulated in "official" pronouncements, manuals, or other publications. I think Church leadership appreciates FARMS scholars' work generally.

Obviously there are some here who are more connected to the apologetics and Church leadership communities who may be able to clear up some of this if I am mistaken.


I don't know that you would get much disagreement from apologists regarding your hypothesis.

Where we may disagree, though, with some people on this thread, is why apologetics has such a nominal effect on LDS leadership and membership.

Some have suggested that it is because LDS apologetics tends to be weak and unsatisfactory even deleterious to wavering LDS faith. And, this may well be true at least in the cases of those making the suggestion.

However, I question whether this reason applies much, if at all, to Church leaders or to members in general. To me, the more likely explanation for the nominal effect of apologetics is because, by and large, the issues raised by critics and doubters, and addressed by apologetics, tend not to be directly relevant to the intents and purposes of the restored gospel--i.e. growth in faith towards becoming like Christ, unto a fullness of joy and love one with another. They tend to fall outside the three-fold mission of the Church and the normal bounds and proposed path of day-to-day spiritual development.

While critic and apologist may wrangle over hemispheric or limit geography for the Book of Mormon, or whether Joseph Smith consummated his plural marriages, or if the Book of Abraham was translated from the extant papyri, etc. etc., the general membership, with the encouragement of the leaders, are incline towards being rightly concerned with whether they are raising their children right, have sufficiently met their leadership obligations, have done enough service to their fellow man, are reading the scriptures often enough, praying sincerely, attending the temple frequently, are mindful of the ancestors, etc. etc. For good reason, the leaders and members really haven't the need or the time to be bothered with most, if not all, of the issues raised on this and other boards frequented by apologists.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Well said Wade! :biggrin:

Amazing as it seems, there are some things we can agree on.
_StructureCop
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Re: Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

Post by _StructureCop »

RockSlider wrote:StructureCop:

Wow ... Thank you for taking the time to post that link ... I was glued to all 4 parts.

What a shame, that I along with others that bought the myth ... have missed out on so much.

once again, thank you for posting that link for me

You bet. Elbert is an expressive and articulate storyteller, so I really enjoyed it too!
The missing roll theory can go to hell. -- Paul Osborne

The evidence will never be compelling for either side of the argument in rational terms. -- John Clark
_wenglund
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Re: Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

Post by _wenglund »

Morrissey wrote:Well said Wade! :biggrin:

Amazing as it seems, there are some things we can agree on.


I am pleased to hear it, though I am a bit surprised that you would agree given the obvious negative implications in terms of those who have lost faith in the restored gospel of Christ. :confused:

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
"Why should I care about being consistent?" --Mister Scratch (MD, '08)
_Paul Osborne

Re: Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

Post by _Paul Osborne »

These people are rare, but they exist (e.g., Paul Osborne).


I'm not happy that the General Authorties have passed the ball over to the apologists. I'd like to see the leaders stand up and answer the tough questions.

I've read Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith several times, once out loud; I find him to be the greatest Mormon apologist of his time. I'd be thrilled if the First Presidency shifted gears and did the same.

But, it's not my Church, I'm just a member of it who tends to complain from time to time. I'm just not satisfied but there isn't much I can do about it.

Paul O
_Scottie
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Re: Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

Post by _Scottie »

I believe one of the functions of apologetics is so that the members can say, "smarter men than you know about these issues, have addressed them all and they still believe!!" They don't actually need to know what issues were addressed or how. Just the simple fact that they have been addressed is sufficient enough.

My ex used this on me allll the time.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman

I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
_StructureCop
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Re: Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

Post by _StructureCop »

Scottie wrote:I believe one of the functions of apologetics is so that the members can say, "smarter men than you know about these issues, have addressed them all and they still believe!!" They don't actually need to know what issues were addressed or how. Just the simple fact that they have been addressed is sufficient enough.

My ex used this on me allll the time.

You know, that's a really interesting point. I've heard a story or two (I can't remember where or who -- it might have even been here) about bishops and other ecclesiastical leaders offering FARMS material as a way to resolve concerns. It wasn't so much a direct response to the concern, but it was more along the lines of "all this stuff has been figured out - SEE?"

I don't think that is what FARMS contributors want their material used for, but I would categorize it as a folk-level effect of apologetics.

Thanks for the point!
The missing roll theory can go to hell. -- Paul Osborne

The evidence will never be compelling for either side of the argument in rational terms. -- John Clark
_Henry Jacobs
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Re: Net Effect of Apologetics on Leadership and Membership

Post by _Henry Jacobs »

Another effect is some BAD information being reinforced in the membership by people who are seen as "men smarter than you".

An example from a recent visit by our HT. He tells a story of his friend who had doubts about the Book of Mormon because of the mention of elephants. This TBM HT got slightly worried until he want to FARMS, found an article that reassured him that there were indeed American elephants in Book of Mormon times, and so now all is well in his mind again. "My friend had been misled by anti material".

Part of FARMS' net effect is the dumbing down the saints.
Oh yes, books disturb people. . . Guy Montag.
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