Critical analysis of the stone box

[_Buffalo]

Sure. A lot of religion requires supernatural components. A man who alone can make universes is a supernatural thing. So if He wanted the gold to be very light, then He can make it that way. And I am sure portability was a concern, so He made the box that way too.

You wanted some quick response from a defender, there ya go.

JMS

http://www.fredbecker.com/Magic002.gif

[_zeezrom]

I suppose God may have used a corrosion resistent polymer of sorts for the box. Years later, guys at NASA finally figured it out. The problem with a polymer is that while it lasts a long time and is water tight, it will have a buoyancy problem. Buried vaults need to be heavy so they stay buried over its design life.

[_Fence Sitter]

Zee,

I think your design is missing two critical components that were common to hidden boxes in the area. You need to add an escape tunnel that would allow the box to slip away when the proper requirements for finding the buried box were not met. This tunnel needs to be designed so that it is self collapsing after use and would leave no trace it was ever there. Secondly you are missing the mandatory nest for reptilian protectors.

[_Polygamy-Porter]

I appreciate the discussions that have taken place on my little ol' thread.

in my opinion, Josh brings up the only viable defense.

If God took the plates to heaven, why not the stone box?

For that matter why not state that ALL of the Book of Mormon artifacts were taken away by God?
He is afterall all powerful, so why not pull that card?

Based on my own anecdotal evidence from being raised as a Utah Mormon, most Mormons are chapel Mormons who when backed into a corner will reach for that "with God nothing is impossible" card.

Me thinks Josh is tiring of Mormonism though.

[_Polygamy-Porter]

Free cab ride to the top.

[_Tchild]

Porter,

Excellent starting point for this discussion.

Let me add a few minor points of detail.

Pure gold is nearly impervious to chemical reactions, the notable exception being aqua regia. Because of this, the box would not need to be sealed from moisture in order to save the plates. The necessity to seal the box from moisture would come from the claim that the bronze or steel sword of Laban was also in the box. Any moisture entering the box would probably have no effect on the plates, but the other, non-gold, metallic items would certainly have suffered as a result.

Gold has a density of 19.3 grams per cubic centimeter, and the plates were described at being 8" x 6" x 6".

8 x 6 x 6 inches = 20.32 x 15.24 x 15.24 centimeters which equals 4719.47 cubic centimeters.
4719.47 cm3 multiplied by 19.3 grams per cm3 = 91,086 grams = 91.086 kilograms = 200.39 lbs.

If the plates were pure gold, their weight would be capped at 200 lbs (for plates which had basically zero air-gaps). If there were gaps between the leaves, that weight would drop accordingly. Gold is very malleable, and as such, it would be relatively easy to apply pressure to any stack of gold leaves and cause them to become tightly compressed, leaving very little air-gap between them. I think it is safe to say that the plates as described could probably not weigh less than 100 lbs. This figure needs to be taken into account when considering all the anecdotal evidence of various people handling the plates. The apocryphal story of Smith sprinting three miles, leaping logs and eluding three banditos, with the plates tucked under his arm, being one of them. Another is the story of Emma, routinely moving the plates tucked away in a pillowcase, as she did her housework.

The current apologetic rationale is that the plates were made of tumbaga ( non-specific alloy of gold and copper with anywhere from 97%-3% gold content).

Tumbaga is the natural apologetic explanation because the "witnesses" who lifted or hefted the plates (covered of course) estimated their weight from about 40-60 lbs. So, it stands to reason from the LDS mindset, given the dimensions of the plates, that the gold content must have been rather low. Also, tumbaga was used extensively by pre-columbian cultures in central and south america.

Why don't apologists factor in the possibility that the plates were a prop made of tin that could readily be found at a local cooper shop, such as was owned and operated by a Joseph Smith Sr.?

What is the weight of tin with the same measurements as the plates? About 40 lbs.

[_beefcalf]

The current apologetic rationale is that the plates were made of tumbaga ( non-specific alloy of gold and copper with anywhere from 97%-3% gold content).

Tumbaga is the natural apologetic explanation because the "witnesses" who lifted or hefted the plates (covered of course) estimated their weight from about 40-60 lbs. So, it stands to reason from the LDS mindset, given the dimensions of the plates, that the gold content must have been rather low. Also, tumbaga was used extensively by pre-columbian cultures in central and south america.

Why don't apologists factor in the possibility that the plates were a prop made of tin that could readily be found at a local cooper shop, such as was owned and operated by a Joseph Smith Sr.?

What is the weight of tin with the same measurements as the plates? About 40 lbs.

Let me have another go at that calculation, except I'll use copper:

Copper has a density of 8.94 grams per cubic centimeter, and the plates were described at being 8" x 6" x 6".

8 x 6 x 6 inches = 20.32 x 15.24 x 15.24 centimeters which equals 4719.47 cubic centimeters.
4719.47 cm3 multiplied by 8.94 grams per cm3 = 42,192 grams = 41.192 kilograms = 92.8 lbs.

So, if we assume that these plates were not gold, but rather a 97% copper +3 % gold alloy, we can see the weight drops to less than half, but that weight is still more than 93 pounds. If we allow a 100% air gap (plate thickness to air gap ratio) then we can bring the weight down to ~46 lbs, right where the apologists need it to be.

But then we go back to the problem with the box, which could not have been made water-tight. Any substance which is 97% copper is gonna have a helluva time with oxidation (corrosion). Plates made of this material may physically be able to last for thousands of years, but any writing upon them would surely be so badly eroded by the patina of copper oxide as to make it difficult to read.

I'd say the apologetic Tumbaga Gambit causes as many problems as it solves. Which is to say it is in good company with many other apologetic explanations hastily concocted with the vain hope of saving the church from its own sordid history.

[_CaliforniaKid]

I can't get this image to post, for some reason, so I'll just link to it.

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k52 ... 000190.jpg

This is a photograph of an exhibit in the Joseph Smith Building at BYU.

Q: How do all those big artifacts fit into that little stone box?
A: With God, all things are possible.

[_Buffalo]

I can't get this image to post, for some reason, so I'll just link to it.

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k52 ... 000190.jpg

This is a photograph of an exhibit in the Joseph Smith Building at BYU.

Q: How do all those big artifacts fit into that little stone box?
A: With God, all things are possible.

[_DrW]

Polygamy-Porter, Zeezrom and beefcalf,

Thanks for an interesting and insightful OP and thread. It is amazing what one realizes when they take a second (and little more critical) look at Mormon truth claims using the tools of evidence and logic instead of unfounded belief and emotion.

Zee, Great Graphic. Hope it shows up elsewhere associated with this problem (with proper attribution, of course).

Well done, all.