The Gnostic Gospel of Mary

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_Milesius
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Re: The Gnostic Gospel of Mary

Post by _Milesius »

liz3564 wrote:
Milesius wrote:The Gospels are history. By way of contrast, the Gnostic Gospel of Mary is Mary Sue type fanfiction.

How did you come to that conclusion?


The Gospels (with the possible exception of Luke) date before the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. The Gnostic Gospel of Mary dates to 100 years or more after the death of Christ. Also, the ridiculous contortions of plain text that the Gnostics pulled out of their collective asses speak to a group that was not grounded in history, reality, or reason. (Gnosticism was the Mormonism of its day.)
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei
_zeezrom
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Re: The Gnostic Gospel of Mary

Post by _zeezrom »

Milesius wrote:The Gospels (with the possible exception of Luke) date before the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. The Gnostic Gospel of Mary dates to 100 years or more after the death of Christ. Also, the ridiculous contortions of plain text that the Gnostics pulled out of their collective asses speak to a group that was not grounded in history, reality, or reason. (Gnosticism was the Mormonism of its day.)

I remain unconvinced by your argument.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_LDSToronto
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Re: The Gnostic Gospel of Mary

Post by _LDSToronto »

zeezrom wrote:I re-read the quoted text in the OP. I would like to point to the following verses:

Ch 5, vv 3 & 9
Ch 9, vv 8

Under the assumption that Jesus was married to the woman referenced above, we see that she is nowhere near his equal. This really sucks! This is likely the reason men have hidden any idea of a married God from us. We end up with two "unfavorable" options:

A. God is equal with her husband
B. the wife of God is an eternal servant to her husband

It is very difficult for society to grasp the opinion that God is a woman with a husband.


Why does society need to hold to any opinion of god? I think it's a bit odd that god is gendered at all or that god is married.

Zee, I hope you'll answer this - I'd like you to consider your marriage. What does it mean to you when you think or claim that you and your wife are equals? How are you equal? Are there any ways in which you are not equal? What are those ways? How do you maintain equity? Is it difficult? If so, why? If not, why not?

H.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level."
~ Ernest Becker
"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
~ Simone de Beauvoir
_zeezrom
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Re: The Gnostic Gospel of Mary

Post by _zeezrom »

Society doesn't have to hold an opinion about God but they do. I hope people will consider alternatives. God doesn't have to be married and it doesn't have to be male or female. But if God is genderless then God is something I can't relate to and might as well be a piece of dough.

Regarding my own situation: I wish I could be perfect and I wish I knew what it meant to be perfect but I don't and can't.

Here is what I do think: a man-god is what most people around here (in real life) believe in. For some reason, people think that belief in a god-wife makes the circle of perfect religion complete. It doesn't, in my opinion. Why isn't anyone willing to consider the idea that maybe Jesus was a woman and she might have found a man to worship her and marry her? Because that sounds ridiculous.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_LDSToronto
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Re: The Gnostic Gospel of Mary

Post by _LDSToronto »

zeezrom wrote:Society doesn't have to hold an opinion about God but they do. I hope people will consider alternatives. God doesn't have to be married and it doesn't have to be male or female. But if God is genderless then God is something I can't relate to and might as well be a piece of dough.

Regarding my own situation: I wish I could be perfect and I wish I knew what it meant to be perfect but I don't and can't.

Here is what I do think: a man-god is what most people around here (in real life) believe in. For some reason, people think that belief in a god-wife makes the circle of perfect religion complete. It doesn't, in my opinion. Why isn't anyone willing to consider the idea that maybe Jesus was a woman and she might have found a man to worship her and marry her? Because that sounds ridiculous.


People don't consider that Jesus was a woman because Jesus was not a woman, according to all records of Jesus. Jesus is a man.

But you avoid the question about what it means to be equal, which says to me that you hold gods and neighbours to a higher standard than you hold yourself to. It's easy to say that a god-wife should be equal to a god, but then you admit you don't practice this. It sounds like superficial feminist fishing rather than well-reasoned practice.

Unless I'm misreading you.

H.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level."
~ Ernest Becker
"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
~ Simone de Beauvoir
_zeezrom
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Re: The Gnostic Gospel of Mary

Post by _zeezrom »

You are taking the New Testament way too literally, LDST!

You may not be misreading me. But one thing is for sure: I'm not devoting enough time to your questions. Sorry
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_LDSToronto
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Re: The Gnostic Gospel of Mary

Post by _LDSToronto »

zeezrom wrote:You are taking the New Testament way too literally, LDST!

You may not be misreading me. But one thing is for sure: I'm not devoting enough time to your questions. Sorry


LOL! Believing Jesus to be a man is hardly taking the New Testament "too literally". I mean, I believe you are man, having read what you write, what others write of you and pictures I've seen of you. Imagining you to be a woman may be an interesting exercise, but that re-imagining changes nothing about your gender.

I'm eager to hear what framework of equality you are working with, Zee.

H.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level."
~ Ernest Becker
"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
~ Simone de Beauvoir
_zeezrom
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Re: The Gnostic Gospel of Mary

Post by _zeezrom »

The real reason why Jesus was murdered: people couldn't face the reality Jesus was a woman?

I'll get back on the equality thing. For now, let's go with worshipping the spouse as a main point. One-way worship in marriage is not equality.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_Yoda

Re: The Gnostic Gospel of Mary

Post by _Yoda »

Zee-I found an interesting article on the evolution of Goddess worship:

Goddess Worhip:That Real Old Time Religion wrote:Goddess worship in ancient times:

Most researchers currently accept the belief that modern humans originated in Africa about 200,000 to 250,000 years ago. Until about 8000 BCE, our ancestors organized themselves into hunter-gatherer societies. Humans alone had developed the realization that their life was finite; that they would all die. This resulted in the development of the primitive religious beliefs. Societies which relied mainly on hunting by men naturally developed hunting gods to worship. Those in which gathering was more reliable generally created vegetative Goddesses. The importance of fertility in crops, in domesticated animals, in wild animals and in the tribe itself were of paramount importance to their survival. The female life-giving principle was considered divine and a great mystery. Some Goddess statues still survive from this era. One web site contains photographs of Goddess statues from circa 30,000 BCE to 1987 CE. 1

It is important to realize that many of these findings by archaeologists and historians are speculative in nature. For example, the interpretation that the old European culture stressed the female as divine is largely based on the number of carvings of a female shape found from this era. Some point to the relative lack of equivalent male statues as evidence of a Goddess culture. Others suggest that the female statues might have been the old European culture's equivalent of modern-day erotic photographs.

This "old European" culture lasted for tens of thousands of years in what is now Europe. They generally lived in peace; there is a notable lack of defensive fortifications around their hamlets. As evidenced by their funeral customs, males and females appear to have had equal status. Many historians and archaeologists believe that:

Their society was matrilineal; children took their mothers' names.
Life was based on lunar (not solar) calendar.
Time was experienced as a repetitive cycle, not linearly as we think of it.
Many academics believe that the suppression of Goddess worship in Western Europe occurred a few thousand years BCE, when the Indo-Europeans invaded Europe from the East. They brought with them some of the "refinements" of modern civilization: the horse, war, belief in male Gods, exploitation of nature, knowledge of the male role in procreation, etc. Goddess worship was gradually combined with worship of male Gods to produce a variety of Pagan polytheistic religions, among the Greeks, Romans, Celts, etc. Author Leonard Shlain offers a fascinating alternative explanation. He proposed that the invention of writing

"... rewired the human brain, with profound consequences for culture. Making remarkable connections across a wide range of subjects including brain function, anthropology, history, and religion, Shlain argues that literacy reinforced the brain's linear, abstract, predominantly masculine left hemisphere at the expense of the holistic, iconic feminine right one. This shift upset the balance between men and women initiating the disappearance of goddesses, the abhorrence of images, and, in literacy's early stages, the decline of women's political status. Patriarchy and misogyny followed."

Goddess Worship during Biblical times:

Further south, as Judaism, Christianity & eventually Islam evolved, the Pagan religions were suppressed and the female principle was gradually driven out of religion. Women were considered inferior to men. The God, King, Priest & Father replaced the Goddess, Queen, Priestess & Mother. The role of women became restricted. A woman's testimony was not considered significant in Jewish courts; women were not allowed to speak in Christian churches; positions of authority in the church were limited to men. Young women are often portrayed in the Bible as possessions of their fathers. After marriage, their ownership was transferred to their husbands. Yeshua of Nazareth (a.k.a. Jesus Christ) rejected millennia of religious tradition by treating women as equals. Women played a major role in the early Christian church. Later, epistle (letter) writers who wrote in the name of Paul, started the process of suppressing women once more.

A feminine presence was added to Christianity by the Council of Ephesus in 431 CE when the Virgin Mary was named Theotokos (Mother of God). But her role was heavily restricted and included none of the fertility component present in Pagan religions. A low point in the fortunes of women was reached during the very late Middle Ages, when many tens of thousands of suspected female witches (and a smaller proportion of males) were exterminated by burning and hanging over a three century interval. Today, respect for the Virgin Mary as a sexually "pure," submissive mother is widespread, particularly in Roman Catholicism.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/goddess.htm

It is interesting to note that Jesus is also referred to here as involving women in substantial roles in his Church, much to the objection of Peter and Paul.

The worship of the Goddess is not as "far-fetched" in society as you might think.

I think that whether or not a female or male deity is worshipped has a lot to do with which sex has the primary soceital power.

It seems to me that Jesus attempted to equalize things a bit.
_LDSToronto
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Re: The Gnostic Gospel of Mary

Post by _LDSToronto »

zeezrom wrote:The real reason why Jesus was murdered: people couldn't face the reality Jesus was a woman?


Srsly?

H.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level."
~ Ernest Becker
"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
~ Simone de Beauvoir
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