Evidences for Human Evolution Continue to be Discovered

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_Some Schmo
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Re: Evidences for Human Evolution Continue to be Discovered

Post by _Some Schmo »

Ceeboo wrote:A raccoon-like quadruped, the indohyus, that evolved into a whale! Yes, this animal was once a fish that spent millions of years growing fins and gills so it could swim and breathe. Then it realized it would be better if it could crawl out of the ocean, away from those pesky sharks and other predators. It evolved legs and lungs so it could come out of the water. It then evolved a furry exterior and became a quadruped, the indohyus. The indohyus then realized what a mistake it had made :lol: , so it re-evolved fins, shrank its hind legs down to small completely internal bones, disappeared its forelegs, and went back into the water with those pesky sharks, which must not have been so bad after all, to become the largest species ever known to man: a whale! It’s nasal openings migrated to the top of it’s head to become single or double blowholes.

If this is how you understand it, it is little wonder you reject it. I don't believe your ideas about evolution either.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Chap
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Re: Evidences for Human Evolution Continue to be Discovered

Post by _Chap »

An article was published in Nature in 2007:

Whales originated from aquatic artiodactyls in the Eocene epoch of India
J. G. M. Thewissen, Lisa Noelle Cooper, Mark T. Clementz, Sunil Bajpai & B. N. Tiwari
Nature 450, 1190–1194 (20 December 2007)
doi:10.1038/nature06343
Download Citation
Received:
26 June 2007
Accepted:
03 October 2007
Published online:
20 December 2007

Here are the opening sections:

Abstract
Although the first ten million years of whale evolution are documented by a remarkable series of fossil skeletons, the link to the ancestor of cetaceans has been missing. It was known that whales are related to even-toed ungulates (artiodactyls), but until now no artiodactyls were morphologically close to early whales. Here we show that the Eocene south Asian raoellid artiodactyls are the sister group to whales. The raoellid Indohyus is similar to whales, and unlike other artiodactyls, in the structure of its ears and premolars, in the density of its limb bones and in the stable-oxygen-isotope composition of its teeth. We also show that a major dietary change occurred during the transition from artiodactyls to whales and that raoellids were aquatic waders. This indicates that aquatic life in this lineage occurred before the origin of the order Cetacea.

Main
Phylogenetic analyses of molecular data on extant animals strongly support the notion that hippopotamids are the closest relatives of cetaceans (whales, dolphins and porpoises)1,2,3. In spite of this, it is unlikely that the two groups are closely related when extant and extinct artiodactyls are analysed, for the simple reason that cetaceans originated about 50 million years (Myr) ago in south Asia, whereas the family Hippopotamidae is only 15 Myr old, and the first hippopotamids to be recorded in Asia are only 6 Myr old4. However, analyses of fossil clades have not resolved the issue of cetacean relations. Proposed sister groups ranged from the entire artiodactyl order5,6, to the extinct early ungulates mesonychians7, to an anthracotheroid clade8 (which included hippopotamids), to weakly supporting hippopotamids (to the exclusion of anthracotheres9,10).

The middle Eocene artiodactyl family Raoellidae11,12,13,14 is broadly coeval with the earliest cetaceans, and both are endemic to south Asia. Raoellids, as a composite consisting of several genera, have been added to some phylogenetic analyses5,10, but no close relation to whales was found because raoellid fossils were essentially limited to dental material11,12,13,14. We studied new dental, cranial and postcranial material for Indohyus, a middle Eocene raoellid artiodactyl from Kashmir, India (Fig. 1). All fossils of Indohyus were collected at a middle Eocene bone bed extending for about 50 m at the locality Sindkhatudi in the Kalakot region of Kashmir on the Indian side of the Line of Control. Our analysis identifies raoellids as the sister group to cetaceans and bridges the morphological divide that separated early cetaceans from artiodacyls. This has profound implications for the character transformations near the origin of cetaceans and the cladistic definition of Cetacea, and identifies the habitat in which whales originated. Taken together, our findings lead us to propose a new hypothesis for the origin of whales.


But that is just the suggestion of one group of palaeontologists. Others have other ideas:

Impact of increased character sampling on the phylogeny of Cetartiodactyla (Mammalia): combined analysis including fossils

Authors
Maureen A. O'Leary,
John Gatesy
First published: 16 November 2007Full publication history
DOI: 10.1111/j.1096-0031.2007.00187.

Abstract:

The phylogenetic position of Cetacea (whales, dolphins and porpoises) is an important exemplar problem for combined data parsimony analyses because the clade is ancient and includes many well-known and relatively complete fossil species. We combined data for 71 terminal taxa (43 extinct/28 extant) to test where Cetacea fits within Cetartiodactyla, and where various fossil hoofed mammals (e.g., †entelodonts, “†anthracotheriids” and †mesonychians) are positioned. We scored 635 phenotypic characters (osteology, dentition, soft tissue, behavior), approximately three times the number of characters in the last major analysis of this clade, and combined these with > 40 000 molecular characters, including new data from 10 genes. The analysis supported a topology consistent with the majority of recently published molecular studies. Cetacea was the extant sister taxon of Hippopotamidae, followed successively by Ruminantia, Suina and Camelidae. Several extinct taxa were phylogenetically unstable, upsetting resolution of the strict consensus and limiting branch support, but the positions of several key fossils were consistently resolved. The wholly extinct †Mesonychia was more closely related to Cetacea than was any “artiodactylan.”“†Anthracotheriids” were paraphyletic, and, with the exception of one species, were more closely related to Hippopotamidae than to any other living taxon. The total evidence analysis overturned a highly nested position for Moschus supported by molecular data alone. The character partition that could be scored for the fossil taxa (osteological and dental characters) included more informative characters than most molecular partitions in our analysis, and had the fewest missing data. The osteological–dental data alone, however, did not support inclusion of cetaceans within crown “Artiodactyla.” Recently discovered ankle bones from fossil whales reinforced the monophyly of Cetartiodactyla but provided no particular evidence of derived similarities between hippopotamids and fossil cetaceans that were not shared with other “artiodactylans”.


Conclusions:

Our combined matrix supported a phylogenetic hypothesis that contrasted strikingly with recent cladistic analyses of cetartiodactylan phylogeny (Geisler, 2001; Thewissen et al., 2001; Geisler and Uhen, 2003, 2005; Boisserie et al., 2005a; Theodor and Foss, 2005). In particular, the combined data from the skeleton, dentition, soft tissues, behavior, transposons, amino acid sequences, and genes clustered the extinct taxa †Hapalodectidae, †Mesonychidae, and †Eoconodon closest to living and extinct cetaceans, and in turn, this entire clade was deeply nested within a paraphyletic “Artiodactyla” (Figs 1B, 4, 5). Thus, our optimal cladograms showed a composite of relationships that were wholly consistent with many previous molecular trees for extant Cetartiodactyla (Fig. 7; Graur and Higgins, 1994; Gatesy et al., 1996, 1999a,b; Gatesy, 1998; Nikaido et al., 1999; Gatesy and Arctander, 2000; Madsen et al., 2001; Murphy et al., 2001a; Springer et al., 2003), but also included critical aspects of more traditional, paleontological interpretations of whale origins (VanValen, 1966; Prothero et al., 1988; Prothero, 1993; Thewissen, 1994; Geisler and Luo, 1998; Luo, 1998; O'Leary, 1998, 2001; Luo and Gingerich, 1999; O'Leary and Geisler, 1999).

Our results indicated, contraGingerich et al. (2001, p. 2241), that shared similarities in the dentitions of †archaeocete cetaceans and †mesonychids are homologous and were not independently derived. Furthermore, according to our total evidence MPTs, characters in the “artiodactylan” ankle that were assumed to be homoplasy-free (Luckett and Hong, 1998) have reversed or been lost in certain clades such as †Mesonychidae (Fig. 5). Schaeffer (1947, p. 22) called the artiodactylan astragalus “a basic ordinal character”; in the context of our results, some features of the astragalus remained ordinal characters, but supported a much more inclusive mammalian order, Cetartiodactyla.

In previous phylogenetic analyses of whale origins (e.g., Thewissen, 1994; O'Leary, 1998; O'Leary and Geisler, 1999; Geisler, 2001), dental characters provided critical support that grouped Cetacea with †Hapalodectes and †Mesonychidae (Figs 5 and 8), but the evidence for this relationship is not restricted to the dentition. For example, a detailed cladistic study of basicranial characters only (Luo and Gingerich, 1999) strongly grouped †Mesonychidae with Cetacea to the exclusion of “Artiodactyla” (bootstrap of 98%). Characters from all of these prior studies were incorporated into our matrix, and in combined analysis, both dental and cranial characters contributed support for a close relationship between Cetacea and †mesonychians (Figs 4 and 5). No “artiodactylan” that has been described to date possesses a dentition that is transitional to that seen in early whales, but this pronounced gap in morphology was bridged by †mesonychids and †Hapalodectes in our total evidence trees (Fig. 8 nodes C and D).

Our results might seem counter-intuitive, because several authors have interpreted the discovery of well-preserved hind limbs from early stem cetaceans as critical evidence that has closed the case on whale origins (e.g., Gingerich et al., 2001; Arnason et al., 2004). Others have suggested that the new cetacean ankle data tipped the balance of support toward exclusion of †Mesonychidae and †Hapalodectidae from Cetartiodactyla, but acknowledged that more thorough sampling of taxa and characters would be required to yield more robust conclusions (Thewissen et al., 2001; Geisler and Uhen, 2003, 2005; Boisserie et al., 2005a; Theodor and Foss, 2005).

One explanation for the difference in results between our study and many prior analyses is that the earlier studies did not maximize the full weight of character evidence from the literature. Of the studies listed above, Gingerich et al. (2001) did not execute a cladistic analysis to substantiate their phylogenetic conclusions. Thewissen et al. (2001), Geisler and Uhen (2003), Boisserie et al. (2005a), and Theodor and Foss (2005) excluded molecular evidence from their systematic studies, and Boisserie et al. (2005a) did not include †mesonychids or †hapalodectids, important taxa featured in nearly all previous discussions of whale origins (VanValen, 1966; Prothero et al., 1988; Prothero, 1993; Thewissen, 1994; Geisler and Luo, 1998; O'Leary, 1998, 2001; Luo and Gingerich, 1999; O'Leary and Geisler, 1999;Geisler, 2001; Gingerich et al., 2001; Thewissen et al., 2001; Geisler and Uhen, 2003, 2005; Theodor and Foss, 2005). The analysis of Geisler and Uhen (2005) merged a large array of molecular and phenotypic traits (38 018 characters (8229 informative) for 73 taxa). However, only a fraction of previously published morphological characters (208 informative) was incorporated into the analysis, and multiple “†anthracotheriids”, putative stem taxa to Hippopotamidae (Boisserie et al., 2005a,b), were not sampled. Here, we made a first attempt at combining the majority of logically independent phenotypic characters from the literature with the largest sample of molecular information ever compiled for Cetartiodactyla. By concatenating all of these data, we hoped to discern common support across character systems, and yield topologies that could be used to infer the polarities of key evolutionary events in this group (Figs 5 and 8).

Unlike our combined analysis of morphology and molecules, cladistic analysis of the osteological–dental partition alone did not produce a tree with Cetacea nested among extant “artiodactylans”, but instead favored a monophyletic clade of crown “artiodactylans” (Fig. 6; also see Thewissen et al., 2001; Theodor and Foss, 2005). Thus, despite a large increase in the number of phenotypic characters relative to previous studies and the discovery of well-preserved cetacean ankle bones (Gingerich et al., 2001; Thewissen et al., 2001), pronounced incongruence remained between characters that fossilize (Fig. 6) and those that do not (Fig. 7). The osteological–dental partition included more informative characters and a much lower percentage of missing data than any of the single gene partitions (Table 5). Only 23% of the characters in the molecular partition were parsimony informative across the entire taxonomic sample. Nonetheless, osteology and dentition accounted for just over 5% of informative characters in the combined matrix and did not overturn the signal in the molecular data for the majority of clades.

At the outset, we predicted that the topology so strongly supported by molecules (Fig. 7) might emerge from an expanded analysis of dental–osteological characters, but this was not the case. For such congruence to be realized in the future likely would require the discovery of early fossil taxa that differ quite drastically from currently known cetartiodactylan forms. In addition to a broader sample of Eocene and Paleocene ungulates, future phylogenetic tests of our overall tree will demand integration of data from Carnivora, †Creodonta, and related taxa. There are distinct similarities in the dentitions of †creodonts, carnivorans, early cetaceans, †mesonychids and †hapalodectids. Therefore, it will be critical to evaluate the impact of a more diverse sample of ancient taxa on the topologies supported by the present analysis.


The two papers are just part of a wide and continuing debate on the question of Cetacean origins. A sketch of that question is given HERE.

Unsurprisingly, the ways in which a group of mammals (whose ancestors evolved on land) ended up spending their entire lives in and under the water are not easy to explain in simple terms, and people who have studied the evidence for many years still disagree with one another.

You can enjoy this situation in one of two ways:

1. Read their work (either directly or through the medium of good scientific journalism) to appreciate one aspect of how extremely versatile living forms can be, and of their apparently unlimited ability to adapt to and exploit new circumstances over the immense expanse of geological time. There may as yet be no agreement as to exactly how cetaceans evolved, but the question is a fascinating one.

2. Amuse yourself by caricaturing their work, and calling them names like 'evo-illusionists'. If this is what you enjoy doing, there is no need to feel guilty or embarrassed. Enjoy! Palaeontology will not be harmed or impeded in the least.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_Xenophon
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Re: Evidences for Human Evolution Continue to be Discovered

Post by _Xenophon »

Ceeboo wrote:Hi Xenophon! :smile:

Xenophon wrote: the whole "raccoon/whale" is really just a meme to stand in for the constant back and forth over evolution/YEC that goes on here.[/url]


I don't see it that way but I certainly allow you plenty of room to see it however you do.
Actually, it has almost nothing at all to do with the YEC's.

Peace,
Ceeboo

Hey back, Ceeboo :biggrin:

Sorry if I was unclear. I view most of the generic references to "raccoons and whales" as a general stand in for the long ongoing back and forth discussion about evolution that has taken place over many years here. It was a very distinct part of your disagreement with the acceptance of Darwinian evolution and so it is an easy way to bring that up, in my opinion. As my multiple links illustrated, YEC often comes up in these discussions not withstanding your personal acceptance or rejection of it. For what it is worth, some of my favorite threads on this board are of you and DrW discussing the topic, I've always respected the ability of both of you to adamantly disagree but to keep it very civil.

You may see it differently, but to me it is kind of an inside joke of the board that hearkens back to previous discussions.
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
_Ceeboo
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Re: Evidences for Human Evolution Continue to be Discovered

Post by _Ceeboo »

Xenophon wrote:Hey back, Ceeboo :biggrin:

Sorry if I was unclear.


No problem - thanks for the added clarity below.
I am sorry that I misunderstood you.


For what it is worth, some of my favorite threads on this board are of you and DrW discussing the topic, I've always respected the ability of both of you to adamantly disagree but to keep it very civil.


Given the enormous advantages that Dr W. has over me in multiple academic disciplines (The many branches of science most certainly included) - I would suggest that most of the credit ought to rest at his feet for our past civil discourse. I'll take a little of the credit though. :smile:

for what it's worth, Many/most of you may not know this but there have been many times that Dr W. 'discussed' things with me via private message - In my mind this was his selected method for sharing things with me while 'protecting' me at the same time - if you know what I mean. A good, generous and decent man to be sure. Lord knows that I probably created moments of frustration for him at times - but again to his credit in my opinion - he continued to be willing to engage me and give me his time. For this I am grateful.................. Even if he is dead wrong about evolution! :lol:

You may see it differently, but to me it is kind of an inside joke of the board that hearkens back to previous discussions.


I see it exactly the same and I have no problem at all with the inside joke. You might have noticed that I am fond of jokes/laughter? :smile:


Thanks for the post!

Peace,
Ceeboo
_RockSlider
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Re: Evidences for Human Evolution Continue to be Discovered

Post by _RockSlider »

Ceeboo wrote:Here is a great one! A raccoon-like quadruped, the indohyus, ...


Thank you for taking the time to find this. Now it makes perfect sense (the whole raccoon to whale discussions that is).

So you say you don't buy "Darwinian Evolution". What other types of 'evolution' are there?

In my understanding Darwinian Evolution is simply old, the root and foundation from which has sprouted into massive growth since that time, and yet Darwin's foundational predictions have continued to prove true. Evolution is Evolution period, right?
_Ceeboo
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Re: Evidences for Human Evolution Continue to be Discovered

Post by _Ceeboo »

RockSlider wrote:
Ceeboo wrote:Here is a great one! A raccoon-like quadruped, the indohyus, ...


Thank you for taking the time to find this.

No problem!

So you say you don't buy "Darwinian Evolution". What other types of 'evolution' are there?


Darwinian evolution - to put it very simply for the purposes of the exchange we are having at this point - is that all species of organisms (life) have developed from other species, mostly through natural selection and random mutations - over very long periods of time (except for when punctuated equilibrium is required - meaning rapid and sudden change must happens over very short periods of time) . From simple to more complex.

Or, in other words, how groups of organisms share a common ancestor that goes back to the very beginning of life - the very first simple/single cell organism that spontaneously arose from non-living matter.

Other "types" of evolution - as you say above (I'm not sure I would use the word "types") obviously exist - and are clearly documented - and can be observed - and are certainly solid/sound/factual. A mere few examples are the evolution of dogs, bacteria, birds, plants, the Finch on Galapagos Island :smile: -

Evolution is how different types of organisms develop - or adapt - or change and the environment sems to clearly impact how and why organisms evolve.

Evolution is Evolution period, right?


Some (most?) people would probably answer that with a very short "yes."

Not me.

Peace,
Ceeboo
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Evidences for Human Evolution Continue to be Discovered

Post by _Jersey Girl »

What about adaptation?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Ceeboo
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Re: Evidences for Human Evolution Continue to be Discovered

Post by _Ceeboo »

Hey Jersey Girl! :smile:

Jersey Girl wrote:What about adaptation?



What about it?
_EAllusion
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Re: Evidences for Human Evolution Continue to be Discovered

Post by _EAllusion »

Ceeboo wrote:
Darwinian evolution - to put it very simply for the purposes of the exchange we are having at this point - is that all species of organisms (life) have developed from other species, mostly through natural selection and random mutations - over very long periods of time (except for when punctuated equilibrium is required - meaning rapid and sudden change must happens over very short periods of time) . From simple to more complex.

Peace,
Ceeboo


That's not what punctuated equilibria is.

Punctuated equilbria starts out by pointing sometimes a species spread over a large geographic area undergoes allopatric speciation. Allopatric (or "vicariant") speciation is when a population is reproductively isolated by some geographical feature - a mountain range, a river, a glacier, etc. - leading to the population to evolutionary diverge over time into distinct species. Then sometimes something causes that boundary to be compromised leading to interspecies competition. One species might rapidly outcompete the other species once they are back in the same area. While evolutionary change may occur on a larger time-scale, competition can change the dominant population in a matter of years. On a geological time-scale, what this would look in most of the fossil record is one species dominating the area only to be replaced by another similar species in a blink. It would look like one species instantly evolved into the other. But if you found the area where evolution via allopatric speciation occurred, this might show more transitional states.

In the 1970's paper where this concept was introduced, Gould and Eldredge use the then extent fossil record to show (or argue for) this phenomenon happening. It's a prediction about small areas of the fossil record yielding richer transitional morphology than the total area because of where and how populations live and compete with one another. In the same paper they also make arguments about discontinuous rates of evolutionary change and cast doubt on anagensis being a primary mode of evolutionary change, which creationists, often using the term "punctuated equilibrium" have habitually misunderstood or misrepresented the concept to be. The creationist version is something to the effect of "evolution occurring in rapid bursts to explain away lack of transitional fossils." You repeat that here, showing both your misunderstanding and where you got it from. Punctuated equilibria is one of the creationists' favorite topics to quote-mine from to misrepresent.

The thing is, I distinctly remember explaining this to you in even more detail before. It did absolutely nothing to disabuse your misunderstanding it would seem.
_Ceeboo
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Re: Evidences for Human Evolution Continue to be Discovered

Post by _Ceeboo »

EA! :smile:

YA know, you don't ALWAYS have to be so rigid.
You can relax around here every now and then. (Especially with me)

EAllusion wrote:The thing is, I distinctly remember explaining this to you


Okay fine - I also distinctly remember "you explaining this to me" (From a thread 5 years ago!) :lol:


I agree with you about punctuated equilibrium too:
As a matter of fact, I think I found an example of it!




Image



Image


Am I right? :lol:

(It's okay to laugh with me EA. I promise it is OK.

Peace,
Ceeboo
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