Iowa governor signs abortion regulation

[_Jersey Girl]

So here is your current fetal standing in the state of Iowa with regard to what Medicaid will permit and cover.

IAC 2/11/87, 7/2/97

Ch 78, p.13Human Services[441]IAC 7/8/92, 7/30/97

78.1(17) Abortions. Payment for an abortion or related service is made when Form XIX (PHY-4) is completed for the applicable circumstances and is attached to each claim for services.

Payment for an abortion is made under one of the following circumstances:

a. The physician certifies that the pregnant woman’s life would be endangered if the fetus were carried to term.

b. The physician certifies that the fetus is physically deformed, mentally deficient or afflicted with a congenital illness and the physician states the medical indication for determining the fetal condition.

c. The pregnancy was the result of rape reported to a law enforcement agency or public or private health agency which may include a family physician within 45 days of the date of occurrence of the incident. The report shall include the name, address, and signature of the person making the report. Form XIX (PHY-4) shall be signed by the person receiving the report of the rape.

d. The pregnancy was the result of incest reported to a law enforcement agency or public or private health agency including a family physician no later than 150 days after the date of occurrence. The report shall include the name, address, and signature of the person making the report. Form XIX (PHY-4) shall be signed by the person receiving the report of incest.

Well there you go. If you are a fetus, your life is worth something unless...

You are going to endanger your mother's life.
You are going to be disabled.
You were conceived via rape.
You were conceived via incest.

I thought every child's life was important and had value?

Oh wait. Your life is only important and has value when we say it does.

[_Themis]

LOL Wikipedia on a definition of a person written by a random unnamed developed human fetus.

Live with your position Themis, my belief is otherwise.

So you cannot make an actual argument. Not a surprise. You recently ran away on the other thread, you started, after people started to discuss facts. I am just asking you to make an argument for your position. You seem to like having positions but spend no time thinking about whether they are reasonable. Like many, your position looks to be made on feelings only. Feelings are fine but one should have reason and evidence to back them up. So can you do more then just run away?

[_EAllusion]

There's a common pro-choice argument that goes a woman should have a right to say if another person uses their organs. This remains true whether a fetus is a person or not. You cannot kidnap someone and take one of their kidneys for 9 months.

Pro-lifers counter that you consent to have a fetus use your organs when you choose to have sex. That was a foreseeable consequence of your choice.

But what about rape? What choice was there in that?

And that's how you get a rape exception to the pro-life position.

[_Hawkeye]

What does that have to do with my view...are you saying that if I did not help those born in a unfortunate circumstance...I have no right to believe taking a child's life is wrong?

This isn't about taking the "life of a child," so stop being disingenuous. You talk about feelings when it is your dumb religious beliefs you rely upon, and they don't get to dictate to the rest of the world what a person is, what a child is, and at one point in time they become either.

A fertilized egg is not a person, neither is a fetus in its first trimester. Nearly all "abortions" are done in the first trimester. If a fetus dying in the womb is "murder" then I guess this means 80% of all abortions (which are miscarriages) are caused by ... God? Late term abortions almost never happen, and when they do they are almost always due to a medical necessity. They're already illegal in most states.

If religious people really believed their own BS on abortion they wouldn't make any exceptions for rape or incest. It is still "murdering a baby" right?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I guess this means 80% of all abortions (which are miscarriages) are caused by ... God? ...

If religious people really believed their own BS on abortion they wouldn't make any exceptions for rape or incest. It is still "murdering a baby" right?

To point #1 let's not forget that not only is God the biggest abortionist, but to point #2 God Himself created death. These are serious theological considerations when one discusses abortion that ought to be addressed.

Pro-lifers aren't really pro-life; they're like someone upthread said, "They're pro-birth."

- Doc

[_subgenius]

...(snip)...they don't get to dictate to the rest of the world what a person is...

Yeah, because you get to get to dictate that, right?

A fertilized egg is not a person, neither is a fetus in its first trimester.

yeah, right.

[_subgenius]

If religious people really believed their own BS on abortion they wouldn't make any exceptions for rape or incest. It is still "murdering a baby" right?

not all religious people believe in the exception...so perhaps you would find safe harbor for your claims of others being disingenuous if you were not being so blatantly the same.

[_Jersey Girl]

...(snip)...they don't get to dictate to the rest of the world what a person is...

Yeah, because you get to get to dictate that, right?

The irony is strong with this one.

No, he doesn't get to dictate.
You don't get to dictate.
I don't get to dictate.

And that's the entire point of the argument in favor of choice.

[_Jersey Girl]

Live with your position Themis, my belief is otherwise.

Your belief doesn't count for squat here, Markkkk. You can voice it all you like, that's your choice. "Her" choice has not a thing to do with you.

What matters is the belief of the woman discovers she is pregnant. How she weighs out the impact of carrying a child to term or not carrying it. How, why, and what she decides about what constitutes life, personhood, and what she decides to do (or not do) about the contents of her own uterus.

You're entitled to an opinion. I'm entitled to an opinion. And so is the woman considering terminating her pregnancy. Ultimately, her views and the decision she makes in her own individual circumstance, are the only views and decision that matter.

Some of us here believe that life begins at conception. Some believe that life begins with a beating heart. Some believe that a life begins when the fetus quickens. Some believe that life begins with the fetus exits the womb.

We have a right to hold and voice our opinions and beliefs, we do not have a right to impose our opinions and beliefs on any single woman.

It is for that very reason, that when the Supreme Court hears the law in Iowa, that they will shoot it down.

Iowa has decided that life begins with a beating heart on or around 6 weeks.

That decision alone is offensive and in opposition to any of us who believe that life begins at conception, when the fetus quickens, or exits the womb.

Whose beliefs and position matter? I say it is the woman who has discovered that she is pregnant and finds herself (for whatever reasons) in conflict regarding carrying a fetus to term.

That's not your life. That's not my life. That is HER life. She has a right to decide for herself because regardless of the decision she makes, it will not impact your life or my life. It will impact HER life forever.

In other words, it's none of our damn business and if you continue to post links to images of what you believe are aborted fetuses, I have no problem countering each image with those of abused children and case histories where parents completely lost their crap on a child.

Because that is what you are setting these unborn children up for. In a multitude of instances of unplanned or unwanted pregnancies, you are subjecting the woman to a variety of social and financial pressures, not the least of which is raising a child in isolation, low financial status, a struggle that she never bargained for and if you say that she bargained for it all when she chose to have sex, then tell me what you believe about the man she had sex with.

Your comments typically involve women who are potential mothers. Where are your comments regarding the males with whom the they have sex? Are you willing to regulate the behavior of men in much the same way that you would like to regulate the behavior of women?

If so, how? And whose freedoms are you willing to take away in the process?

[_Hawkeye]

If religious people really believed their own ____ on abortion they wouldn't make any exceptions for rape or incest. It is still "murdering a baby" right?

not all religious people believe in the exception...so perhaps you would find safe harbor for your claims of others being disingenuous if you were not being so blatantly the same.

Virtually all religious people arguing against abortion make that exception, including your dumb religion.