Trump Disrespects Military... again

[_Kevin Graham]

DrW and Morley don't seem to understand what EA was saying. I certainly didn't read him to say that everyone who joins the military is a psychopath. Everything he said was dead on.

It is like saying racists are attracted to the Republican party. That doesn't mean this is the only reason anyone else could be attracted and it certainly doesn't mean all Republicans are racist.

In my experience, the vast majority of folks in the military aren't the well respected types who have made great accomplishments moving up the ranks. The folks DrW knows represent a tiny minority. Most military folks I knew were grunts. Many didn't have the desire or even the capacity to do anything else in life which is why they joined the military to begin with.

This notion that honorable self-sacrificing types are the ones who join the military is refuted by the fact that enlistments skyrocket in peacetime and plummet during war time.

[_EAllusion]

I think it's a pretty worrisome thing to call military types heroes simply because they elect to do what they do, however daunting, however demanding, and however consuming their service is. Every profession attracts a huge swath of personalities, and while the argument can be made that the military attracts psychopaths, I'd suggest the military is just a reflection of the society it's sworn to defend, whatever that means.

One could argue that the teaching profession attracts a higher percentage of psychopaths given the amount of ____ that goes on, the backstabbing that takes place, and the level of gamesmanship that occurs within the profession. That said, I'd argue if we're going to assign hero status to a profession teachers are much more deserving of the title given their dedication to their craft, the many examples of daily selflessness, and the huge rations of ____ they get to eat simply because they want to educate current and future generations of citizens.

Whatever the case may be, to have a Commander in Chief crap all over a man who is arguable at the pinnacle of his profession, has a history of service that is virtually unparalleled, and to cavalierly disregard the military as its Commander is insanity. It's utter garbage. I have no idea what it's going to take for the Conservative military-Thankyouforyourservice types to snap out of their collective delusion about this man, and, quite frankly, their odd fascination with backpatting military types. I'd much prefer they save their backpatting for emergency personnel, teachers, service providers, and everyone that makes a genuine day-to-day quality of life difference to them.

- Doc

Security professions (military, police, prison guards, etc.) are one of the fields that disproportionately attract people who score high on attempts to measure psychopathy. This should, and usually does, make intuitive sense for people. That field offers a lot for people who have a dearth of empathy and a desire for authority. I don't believe this is the case with teachers. Corporate boards tend to be disproportionately stocked with them too if you're looking for something other than your prior profession to ease the blow.

I mention it because the reflexive hero worship that has built up among conservatives for the military, especially post-911, will send them in fits of rage if you suggest that not only is not everyone in the military a wonderful person, but some are there specifically because they are terrible people. It's such a harmless truism that it shouldn't be a problem to acknowledge, but that's political correctness for you. I was trying to use the readers' intuition of that fact to show just how much Donald Trump is allowed to violate norms within his own political culture. The cult of personality around him is intense.

[_Morley]

This should, and usually does, make intuitive sense for people.

Expressing an opinion or saying something makes 'intuitive sense'--and stating that said opinion is 'objectively true'--are two very different things.

Many BS stereotypes are thoughts make intuitive sense to most people, too.

[_EAllusion]

For me, and many of my generation, it was the draft. You could either join up and have some choice as to your Service and MOS, or you could wait to be drafted and take what was offered (which was generally a uniform and a rifle).

I wasn't referring to to the draft. We're many years out of the draft now. I was referring to people who voluntarily serve in the military. It turns out that the military is a profession that attracts people who have psychopathic traits. This isn't even a little surprising theoretically. The military is ideally suited for psychopathic traits.

Are there individuals in the volunteer military who are psychopaths?

Certainly. I don't believe that I have ever met one, however.

I'm sure you have. At least in the Hare sense. Psychopathy exists on a scale and isn't that rare.

None of them have lived lives that would indicate any psychopathic tendencies. These men come across as wise, calm, personable and stable individuals.

People with psychopathic tendencies frequently come across that way. Psychopathy is typified by lack of empathy, not inability to appear personable or stable. Psychopaths tend to be instinctively manipulative and presenting with the traits you describe is helpful at being successful at that.

Here's a book Hare co-wrote on psychopathy in the workplace.

https://www.amazon.com/Snakes-Suits-Whe ... 0061147893

It's a quick read if you have time. It gives a better sense of what is meant by the term here and why your understanding of it doesn't seem to mesh with how it presents.

If you have looked at the literature you would have noted that antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) is a term now recognized and used by the military. This designation may include folks who would be rated as either sociopaths or psychopaths on the couch. ASPD is found in an estimated 4% of the general population.

I work with cluster B personality disorders for a living? I've taken a gander at the literature. Anti-social personality disorder is the closest thing in the DSM currently to psychopathy. It doesn't quite capture the Hare sense and there's a cluster of similar diagnoses that are debated with each revision. Our commander and chief looks an awful lot like someone who has malignant narcissism, which is another closely related off-book diagnosis that almost makes it in with each revision. APD tends to get diagnosed in tandem with conduct problems that don't always capture more socially adept psychopathic types, but yeah, that's a ballpark diagnosis.

Finally, please think about how fortunate you and I are that we have a few good "natural born killers" in the service of our country.

I'm not sure how grateful I should be that we are able to weaponize psychopaths has to do with the comment I made.

[_EAllusion]

This should, and usually does, make intuitive sense for people.

Expressing an opinion or saying something makes 'intuitive sense'--and stating that said opinion is 'objectively true'--are two very different things.

Many ____ stereotypes are thoughts make intuitive sense to most people, too.

It is an objective fact. It's one that I didn't expect to have to do much to defend to move along in the point I was making. If I said, "the sky is blue" that objective fact should make intuitive sense to people. Give people in the military a psychopathy checklist, and you'll find a disproportionate concentration of people with high scores. This is also true among business executives and, to a much greater extent, prisoners.

[_Morley]

It is an objective fact. It's one that I didn't expect to have to do much to defend to move along in the point I was making. If I said, "the sky is blue" that objective fact should make intuitive sense to people. Give people in the military a psychopathy checklist, and you'll find a disproportionate concentration of people with high scores. This is also true among business executives and, to a much greater extent, prisoners.

I'm sure you didn't. You have some actual data to back this up, right?

I don't know about the rest of the military, but psychopaths in combat are the last thing the military wants. In my admittedly limited experience, the combat arms do a pretty good job of keeping them out.

[_EAllusion]

That you believe this is incredible.

...

and deplorable.

Why is it deplorable? I have a hard time with calling correct statements deplorable, but I want to push past that to your reaction. Obviously, some professions are going to be ones that disproportionately attract psychopaths given that psychopathy involves traits that are better and worse suited to different workplace environments. What if it turned out to be painters? It doesn't, but would it have been deplorable to say painting is a field that disproportionately attracts psychopaths?

[_Morley]

It is an objective fact. It's one that I didn't expect to have to do much to defend to move along in the point I was making. If I said, "the sky is blue" that objective fact should make intuitive sense to people. Give people in the military a psychopathy checklist, and you'll find a disproportionate concentration of people with high scores. This is also true among business executives and, to a much greater extent, prisoners.

Neither business executive suites nor prisons screen to keep psychopaths out. The military and police departments at least attempt this.

[Guest]

That you believe this is incredible.

...

and deplorable.

Why is it deplorable? I have a hard time with calling correct statements deplorable, but I want to push past that to your reaction. Obviously, some professions are going to be ones that disproportionately attract psychopaths given that psychopathy involves traits that are better and worse suited to different workplace environments. What if it turned out to be painters? It doesn't, but would it have been deplorable to say painting is a field that disproportionately attracts psychopaths?

That you say a prejudicial statement is objectively true is what is deplorable. Come on: You didn't read that?

Yes, it would be deplorable if you said that it's 'an objective fact' that painting is a field that disproportionately attracts psychopaths--if you couldn't back it up with data.

edited for grammar

[Guest]

DrW and Morley don't seem to understand what EA was saying. I certainly didn't read him to say that everyone who joins the military is a psychopath. Everything he said was dead on.

It is like saying racists are attracted to the Republican party. That doesn't mean this is the only reason anyone else could be attracted and it certainly doesn't mean all Republicans are racist.

In my experience, the vast majority of folks in the military aren't the well respected types who have made great accomplishments moving up the ranks. The folks DrW knows represent a tiny minority. Most military folks I knew were grunts. Many didn't have the desire or even the capacity to do anything else in life which is why they joined the military to begin with.

This notion that honorable self-sacrificing types are the ones who join the military is refuted by the fact that enlistments skyrocket in peacetime and plummet during war time.

Perhaps the problem here (and the is one) is generational. Individuals such as Morley, myself, by the sounds of it Doc Cam, and no doubt others on the board, joined the military in a time of war.

It turned out not to be a great war, or even a noble war. It was also not OUR war.

It was the war of misguided fear and mistakes by John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Robert McNamara and the Joint Chiefs and one of profit for defense contractors. It was not like the war of our fathers, who may well have served out of necessity in WWII (mine did).

Kevin referred to grunts who he considered dullards. As much as a USMC tanker can be a grunt, I was a grunt as well - just mounted instead of dismounted, and with a larger caliber weapon that was shared with my crew. My comments about never having knowingly met a psychopath in the military stand.

I understand exactly what EA wrote. If that was not what he meant say, then, as I suggested, a bit of data and come calibration would have been helpful.
_________________


ETA: I see that while I was otherwise occupied, EA has responded with some facts and data.

Thank you, EA.

Looks as though he has also clarified that he was specifically referring to the voluntary military service. Fair enough. That was not the case for me, nor from the sound of it, for Morley.

As a nod to EA's comments, and in the cause of board peace, here is a relevant, recent, article I found while otherwise occupied.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ppxae7/the-unique-challenge-of-being-a-psychopath-in-the-military-721