To me it’s very similar to arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
How does the magic in Harry Potter work? What happens when you fall off flat earth? Why could the ring only be destroyed in Mordor?
It’s all made up and the points don’t matter.
drumdude , do you think anybody actually argued about the number of angels on a pin? I seriously doubt it. I have read Aquinas discussion of angel movement and small places. He is concerned about how they work in relation to God. Quite theoretical but a link in his developing reflections on how creation is related to God. Well, that might be abstruse s but people might care about how we relate to God or try to think about it.
I think people actually experience and place high value on experiences theay call grace. Even if the story people tell to explain grace is fiction and we end up only as dust after death, people ask the story of grace to fit their experience enough to reflect its value. It remains like any good fiction, it means something, it fits real experience, and fits together in a coherent story.
It seems to me they’re worried about the saving aspect of grace. Will I be saved by grace alone or do I have to do something?
If you believe in Hell it’s an important question. If you believe in different kingdoms that you can’t move between it’s an important question.
But these days a lot of Christians don’t think many (or any) people are going to hell, if they even believe it exists. A lot of Mormons think we get many more chances to reach the celestial kingdom after this life. A lot of people believe Jesus will save everyone.
That makes a lot of sense to me, much more sense than trying to reconcile every little word in the Bible we have.
Now if we’re talking about different historical beliefs about grace or different beliefs in denominations that’s different. But in practice I don’t see many Christians are all that worried about the specifics.
Looking at my examples perhaps "not withstanding" could be preferred.
What seems apparent about McClellan's analysis of that verse is he is attempting to move it away from the general idea that Mormons equate the necessity of performing all the good works you possibly can in order to get to heaven. Mormonism has turned it into a marathon of having to perform work after work, after all we can do, and then you get patted on the head by Jesus's good grace and admitted into heaven.
But it seems McClellan is not buying that traditional view of "after all you can do" and is attempting to walk it away. I credit him for that but the word "despite" is not compatible with the vocabulary of Joseph Smith, so that word should not be adopted, period. We can agree that the word despite is not a synonym of "AFTER" so it just doesn't apply. And I am not an English expert by any means. Where the hell is Dr. Shades? He's never around when you need him.
It seems to me they’re worried about the saving aspect of grace. Will I be saved by grace alone or do I have to do something?
Martin Luther and Desiderius Erasmus had a very spirited written debate on that very question. I think Luther won, despite my dislike of the man and my admiration of Erasmus (whom I believe to be a bonafide genius).
Really worth anyone's time to read, if you have the inclination.
I appreciate how the Backyard Professor weighs in on how the infinite atonement affects the salvation of a believer in showing how our finite works cannot add to the infinite atonement which literally makes everything else we can do as useless because the infinite encompasses ALL as the WHOLE of everything. Mormon apostles don't understand how the infinite is applied to Jesus's teachings of salvation. You cannot save yourself or offer a sacrifice sufficient enough to match the infinite atonement. But Mormonism teaches you have to work your way to heaven which is something McClellan seems to attempt to walk back despite his poor choice of wording.
Backyard Professor wrote:Through there teachings, through their temples which is essentially all of Joseph Smith’s add-ons to an infinite atonement, so it literally doesn’t make any difference. You can’t add to the infinite to make it any more all-encompassing, it is already all-encompassing
Good job, Philo, you're correct, we cannot add to the infinite because the infinite already has everything.
The Church has a different view of grace than most other Christian religions. In Mormonism, we believe in a works-based salvation and that it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do.
Scholar Daniel McClellan casts doubt on the Mormon view of works-based salvation. I found it very interesting.
Stephen Robinin's book Believing Christ published in 1990 makes the same argument and als argues we are saved by grace. Justified by grace. Sanctified by works.
The Church has a different view of grace than most other Christian religions. In Mormonism, we believe in a works-based salvation and that it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do.
Scholar Daniel McClellan casts doubt on the Mormon view of works-based salvation. I found it very interesting.
Then we have this from Elder Packer that certainly does not agree with Daniel McLellan nor Stephen Robinson.
The gospel teaches us that relief from torment and guilt can be earned through repentance. Save for those few who defect to perdition after having known a fulness, there is no habit, no addiction, no rebellion, no transgression, no offense exempted from the promise of complete forgiveness.
“Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” That is, Isaiah continued, “if ye be willing and obedient.”9
Even that grace of God promised in the scriptures comes only “after all we can do.”10
I think the parable of the workers in which Jesus gave about equal wages for all regardless of of how many hours worked serves to show that salvation comes through grace of God and not by the works of man. The message that Jesus gave is no matter how short or long you work in the field you will be paid a day's pay because of the gift of salvation by the grace of God. Salvation is free and encompasses everything.
You can't buy salvation with money or good works. Neither can you work your way to heaven and earn grace by works. But Mormons will continue to work their way to heaven because they haven't figured out that there is an easier way and that's just live your life the best you can. That is all there is to it! It's really as simple as that. Just live!
