Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

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_Kishkumen
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Re: Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Chap wrote:From much of what has been said on this thread, I carry away the impression that several posters with an academic background want, in effect, to draw a distinction between two possible criticisms of Nibley:

1. He deliberately, consciously, and with the intention of deceiving, misused his sources so as to make them say things contrary to the evident intention of their ancient or medieval authors, by insertion, omission or partial quotation, in such a way as to favor his particular view of the past seen through a Mormon lens. In other words, he lied.

2. He was so immersed in his own idiosyncratically Mormon view of the world that somehow everything that went from the pages he read into his brain and out again through his typewriter became somehow 'Nibleyized', almost (note the 'almost') without his having to perform these acts consciously. This process might be characterized as 'taurocoprography' (to spare Dr. Shades' blushes, I have created this term to avoid an elided version of a word beginning with 'b' and containing a version of the 's' word).

I've tried to write (2) as sympathetically as I can, but as I re-read it, it seems to me simply not plausible that the kinds of distortions documented on this thread could be produced by somebody who was not clearly aware of what he was doing. So I am stuck with (1). He knew what he was doing, and he did it on purpose. He lied.


If this had been Gee, I would have simply said, "He lied," and walked away from it. It is easy to be unsympathetic in regards to an unsympathetic person. Nibley was, in his own way, a much more charming character.

And, I think that what Symmachus has said is right. This falls into your #2 category, but with a different twist. Nibley had a grand vision for how Mormonism was supposed to work. Like many a smart person who wishes the facts lined up with their theories, he lied about the facts in order to make them fit. In different circumstances, he would have been more vigorously taken to task or even censured for so doing. My guess is that some odd combination of him being an institution within his faith and an insignificant person outside of it kept him from being censured.

Chap wrote:His aim seems to be to do no more than to keep his plates spinning and to keep talking for as long and as rapidly as it takes to make the impression he wants to make - which is clearly 'Isn't Professor Nibley brilliant, and gee, it seems we don't have to worry about those horses any more.' It's more male bovine related activity, but this time the word is 'taurocoprology'.


I think your fundamental problem here is in your inability to see how Nibley fooled himself. He was so convinced that his take on things was True that he had no problem lying about the details in order to communicate that Truth. So, your idea about spinning and talking has merit but is an incomplete story.

Chap wrote:If this man had been born in 1980 rather 1910, I don't think he would still be in the Mormon church. He was too clever, and too interested in ferreting things out. The Internet would soon have seen to it that any shelf he might have constructed to keep his testimony would have snapped early on. But he was born when he was, and lived the life he lived. That seems to me to be something quite tragic - though he probably would not have seen it that way.


This contrafactual history is next to meaningless. For starters, there are many smart guys who have the internet and still remain in the LDS Church. It also seems to me that you are oversimplifying the differences between 1980 and 1910. Maybe the dates themselves are not as significant as his relationship with the LDS hierarchy. He was a member of the family. His ancestor was one of Joseph Smith's teachers. This guy was so implicated in Mormonism that it would be difficult to imagine him leaving it. Finally, he was a person with a social conscience who felt the ideal Mormonism was a socially and ecologically conscious one. You might imagine that would be the deal breaker, but you have to remember that he was also close to the corruption and obtuseness of the leadership (including his own grandfather) for his whole life. That didn't break it for him.

What I think may have happened is that FARMS would have died a lot earlier, if it ever got off the ground in the first place. They made money selling his books. Nibley also gave FARMS a library of material that gave their operation the appearance of legitimacy sufficient to attract more donations. With Nibley on the masthead, the fundraisers could go out to ask for money with the message of apologetic success. Other talented people were drawn into the scholarly orbit of FARMS, but each and every one of them was academically crippled by their involvement with it. So many good minds distracted by a fruitless enterprise.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Chap
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Re: Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

Post by _Chap »

Thanks for your moderate and reasoned response.

Kishkumen wrote: Nibley had a grand vision for how Mormonism was supposed to work. Like many a smart person who wishes the facts lined up with their theories, he lied about the facts in order to make them fit.


Kishkumen wrote:He was so convinced that his take on things was True that he had no problem lying about the details in order to communicate that Truth.


We seem to be agreed about the lying. That's where I can no longer make the empathic shift to imagining myself being Nibley - not because I wish to claim to be a person of superior moral fiber, but because:

A. In an academic context, I'd be so scared that someone might discover the lie and call me out on it, and the knowledge that I might be found out would be a continual anxiety.

B. In a modern religious context (just so we don't get onto Abraham, his wife, Pharaoh and so on), I just couldn't, when I was a believer, have got myself to believe that God wanted me to defend truth with a lie. I mean, if it's true it doesn't need a lie to defend it. I am of course talking about religious claims here, not questions from the Gestapo along the lines of "Are there any Jews in this house?"

The Mormon power structure within which Nibley worked evidently gave him the confidence to deal with (A). As for (B), I fear that the need for and practice of systematic untruth 'for a higher purpose', is a corrupting taint from the very foundations of the CoJCoLDS.

Kishkumen wrote:So many good minds distracted by a fruitless enterprise.


Yes indeed. It's very disturbing to see this happening even today. I think a stronger word than 'distracted' might be appropriate.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Blixa
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Re: Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

Post by _Blixa »

Johannes wrote:A propos of Dee, I'd be interested in any comments on my thread in the Telestial Kingdom.


Did not know there was a thread there. I'll look and add anything if I can.
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_Johannes
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Re: Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

Post by _Johannes »

Blixa wrote:
Johannes wrote:A propos of Dee, I'd be interested in any comments on my thread in the Telestial Kingdom.


Did not know there was a thread there. I'll look and add anything if I can.


Thanks. I think you're probably right about the Hebrew source.

The whole Adamic thing is interesting. I don't know much about Dee and Enochian, but if we're looking for parallels in the esoteric tradition - as the Herr Professor Nibley might have done - there also are the voces magicae that you find in texts like the Greek magical papyri. Unfamiliar, foreign-sounding words of inherent power.

I have a hard time with the thinking behind that because it seems to treat the English language as a mundane thing which is incapable of being theophanic or charged with power. You need to make up linguistic gibberish or else your religion isn't impressive enough. This can;t be right. God is an Englishman, after all.
_Markk
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Re: Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

Post by _Markk »

Mayan Elephant wrote:
yep. indeed.

nibley was a god-awful lunatic. he was filthy. his clothes were filthy. his house was filthy. his classroom was an unorganized disaster. he was unprepared for s*** all the time. he was lazy as hell. but he sure had a lot of smoke blown up his ass. students would sit in his classroom and take notes like it mattered. as if they could ever return to their notes and make one goddamn bit of sense of a sequence of more than 5 words from anything nibley said.

the rows and rows of books on Mormon shelves with the matching covers in pastel colors on vanilla white. all about the same size. they looked like a collection of important s***. nobody read that stuff and took it seriously, because it was not serious. it was a status thing. and it was meant to be on the shelf, just in case one needed a note or reference for one of those talks or lessons.

martha beck has her own issues. her book had issues. but the sentiment was right on track with regards to nibley's professional work - it was a commissioned crock of s***. and it was on track about his presence - filthy ass lunatic. and about the abuse, who can judge. only her. i cannot. but i know this, when someone is pedastaled like nibley was, bad s*** gonna happen. you can bet on that.



LOL...and all I did was call him a hack and a liar.

Maybe the "elite" folks here will apply the same adhoms and "correction" to you that they have to me...one can not script this any better.

But anyway M.E. now that you are living on another planet, have chip on your shoulder and do not understand true scholarship and how it works, you may move down to the old part of the park where we that live in the single wide's dwell.

$$for sale$$
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Markk
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Re: Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

Post by _Markk »

Kishkumen wrote:I think your fundamental problem here is in your inability to see how Nibley fooled himself. He was so convinced that his take on things was True that he had no problem lying about the details in order to communicate that Truth. So, your idea about spinning and talking has merit but is an incomplete story."


Isn't this the same as my writing he lied as a means to an end? Or lying for the Lord? It's funny how these thing go full circle.

What you seem to be supporting is that in scholarship there are such things as justified lying, if it supports ones preconceived ideology?

I am curious, what is in your opinion HN's most profound work...his opus?

Thanks
MG
Last edited by Guest on Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Kishkumen
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Re: Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Chap wrote:We seem to be agreed about the lying. That's where I can no longer make the empathic shift to imagining myself being Nibley - not because I wish to claim to be a person of superior moral fiber, but because:

A. In an academic context, I'd be so scared that someone might discover the lie and call me out on it, and the knowledge that I might be found out would be a continual anxiety.

B. In a modern religious context (just so we don't get onto Abraham, his wife, Pharaoh and so on), I just couldn't, when I was a believer, have got myself to believe that God wanted me to defend truth with a lie. I mean, if it's true it doesn't need a lie to defend it. I am of course talking about religious claims here, not questions from the Gestapo along the lines of "Are there any Jews in this house?"

The Mormon power structure within which Nibley worked evidently gave him the confidence to deal with (A). As for (B), I fear that the need for and practice of systematic untruth 'for a higher purpose', is a corrupting taint from the very foundations of the CoJCoLDS.


I hear you, Chap. I am in no way copacetic with lying. I try to understand how someone else might get there, but I don't believe I could go there myself. I view it as a big red line that I would not cross. When people started to get into the Abraham issues, and I saw or heard about Gee's activities in that regard, I was horrified.

Unfortunately, I was unaware that he may have learned it from Nibley. I was familiar with some of Huggins' criticisms, but not all of them, and, frankly, I read all of my Nibley before I left BYU. My memories of Nibley were shaped by my experience of him as a teacher and social critic. I never took the time to read his dissertation or check his work in close detail.

This thread has forced me to reconsider my assessment of Nibley. While I still feel that his vision of Mormonism had a lot going for it, and his criticism of Mormon society and Mormon leadership was salutary, I can no longer say that I trust him as a scholar, even in his peer-reviewed articles. It is actually quite a blow.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Markk wrote:Isn't this the same as my writing he lied as a means to an end? Or lying for the Lord? It's funny how these thing go full circle.


Yes, he lied as a means toward an end--to support something he believed in: Mormonism

Markk wrote:What you seem to be supporting is that in scholarship there are such a thing as justified lying, if it supports ones preconceived ideology?


Lying in scholarship is not justified. There is a big difference between a sympathetic take on another person's motives and justifying their behavior. I don't think Nibley's unethical scholarship was justified.

I am curious, what is in your opinion HN's most profound work...his opus?


The correct term is magnum opus. I would say Nibley's is Approaching Zion.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Johannes
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Re: Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

Post by _Johannes »

Kishkumen wrote:When people started to get into the Abraham issues, and I saw or heard about Gee's activities in that regard, I was horrified.


What were Gee's activities?
_Markk
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Re: Nibley: Footnote faker or not?

Post by _Markk »

Kishkumen wrote:Lying in scholarship is not justified. There is a big difference between a sympathetic take on another person's motives and justifying their behavior. I don't think Nibley's unethical scholarship was justified.


In other words a "hack?"

I appreciate and respect your honestly in reversing your opinion, I really do. I also understand I am short and to the point, I am a classic example of a good ole boy. LOL...If you saw my I tunes playlist you would never understand some of it. I do know what is right, and what is wrong, and what smells good and what stinks.

I now look forward to see how those that were agreeing with you, and adding to the adhoms about my assertions, respond to your change of thought on his scholarship?

thanks
MG
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
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