Question for Don Bradley

[bill4long]

Jeff Lindsay, an idiot apologist for Interpreter, just handed us a wonderful gift!

Thank you, Jeff-boy:

Parallels between the Book of Moses and the Book of Mormon

In many cases, they cannot be explained as Joseph simply borrowing Book of Mormon language and concepts to compose the Book of Moses. Some of the parallels reflect a one-way direction of influence from the Book of Moses to the Book of Mormon, as if Book of Mormon authors were often alluding to a backstory or to well-developed concepts that the Book of Moses provides. Examples of how these new-found parallels enrich our appreciation of familiar accounts will be offered below.

Given that the Book of Moses translation began well after the Book of Mormon translation was complete, these parallels may cast doubt on common assumptions about how Joseph produced the Book of Moses. Indeed, they can be viewed as evidence that both books have ancient origins, with something like the Book of Moses possibly having been on the brass plates, where it could have influenced Book of Mormon authors—especially those most familiar with the brass plates.

<snip>

An argument can be made that the relationship is best explained by both the Book of Mormon’s and the Book of Moses’s roots in ancient texts that were translated with apparent translator intent (recognizing that multiple translators may have been involved) to make allusions and connections readily discoverable for modern readers.

OOH, GOODY! BUSTED!



This helps us better understand exactly what Joseph Smith the "tight" translator meant when introducing the curse of dark skin placed upon the Lamanites!

And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

So, according to Lindsay, a skin of blackness that came upon the cursed Lamanites is reminiscent of a blackness that came upon the cursed children of Canaan who were the descendants of Cain! Plug in Lindsay's insane apologetics and see for yourself. Lindsay's key in interpreting Lamanite skin of blackness finds direct roots and influence from the Book of Moses manuscript:

For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.

Lindsey insulted me once, back the 90s.

I played a little joke and wrote this:

https://latterdaysainthaven.com/joseph.htm

He said, "this wasn't written by the likes of you"

Well, it was I who wrote it one Saturday afternoon. And it wasn't very good. But for some reason he thought I was too stupid to have written it. Even canpakes could have probably written it.

Fun times from the past.

[Shulem]

Lindsey insulted me once, back the 90s.

I played a little joke and wrote this:

https://latterdaysainthaven.com/joseph.htm

He said, "this wasn't written by the likes of you"

Well, it was I who wrote it one Saturday afternoon. And it wasn't very good. But for some reason he thought I was too stupid to have written it. Even canpakes could have probably written it.

Fun times from the past.

I remember that hoax and critiqued the so-called "RECORD OF JOSEPH" in 2005 (20 years) ago in order to determine if it had merit in tracing it back to Joseph Smith.

So you wrote it?

Here are my comments:

THE RECORD OF JOSEPH
TRANSLATED FROM THE PAPYRUS, BY JOSEPH SMITH Jr.

The following words found in the Record of Joseph are NOT found in the Triple Combination or the prophet's vocabulary in the book entitled, "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith":

1.performeth
2.runneth
3.openeth
4.selleth
5.shew

Joseph Smith did not use these words. But the following list is even more telling. These words are NOT in scripture or the Teachings of the Prophet and the ones marked with a star are significant evidence in exposing a fraud:

1.*debaseth
2.*awesome
3.Azaziel
4.tunic
5.*boastful
6.Hanok
7.*removest
8.Shinmin
9.*bounteous
10.*abhorance
11.*heedest

I think it is a clear giveaway that someone has faked a production which is pretty good and may convince many people - but the evidence of unwanted language shows the prophet didn't write this document.

Also, the word HOWBEIT is only mentioned 3 times in the Triple Combination and is not used in the Teachings of the Prophet. The word howbeit is used 16 times in the Book of Joseph. That says a lot to me! The writer did not do his homework!

Discrepancies:

Birth of Joseph

Note that 3:1, “And it came to pass, Rachel did bring forth a son, and she called his name Joseph. 2And the angel of the LORD appeared unto Jacob in a dream saying”; This is not in sequence with the Biblical narrative: Joseph was born BEFORE Jacob left Laban Gen. 30:22-25 and both Leah and Rachael refer to their “children” 31:14-16. After they left Laban it was clear that Rachael was no longer a nursing mother (assuming she was a nursing mother when she had Joseph) when she sat on the chest containing Laban’s idols, 31:35. Note also that Josephus includes the birth of Joseph before Jacob removed his family from Laban’s house (Book 1, 19:8).

To sum up the sequence: Jacob at age 91 begat Joseph (Gen 30:24,25) This birth date corresponds to the fact that Jacob was 130 and Joseph was 39 when Jacob stood before Pharaoh and blessed him. Although the account seems to suggest that Joseph was born after Jacob's 14 years of service to Laban for his two daughters (Gen 30:25) by which he continued another 6 years labor for his cattle (31:38,41) for a total of 20 years of hired service before returning to Canaan. This simply is not possible because 7 years would not be enough time to bear 11 sons (by 4 wives) as chronicled in chapters 29 and 30. Therefore, Jacob's statement in 30:25 is calling attention to Laban that he fulfilled his original 14 year commitment to Jacob, although he must have remained several more years of his own accord by which other sons including Joseph the 11th was born. Jacob's declaration of 20 years of hired service was a reminder to Laban that he fulfilled his term of agreed service.

The bottom line is I find the opening verse of chapter 3 to be out of sequence or at the very least out of context.

John Bonham:

[bill4long]

So you wrote it?

Yeah. Early 90s. The amusing thing to me is that more than one Mormon said the holy ghost confirmed to them that it was true!

[Shulem]

Yeah. Early 90s. The amusing thing to me is that more than one Mormon said the holy ghost confirmed to them that it was true!

Holy ghostism®​​ in Mormonism confirms a lot of things through spiritual feelings, emotions, and the release of brain chemicals but that doesn't make them true per se. It does, however, make certain things appear relevant to that person during that period of their life. I think it reasonable that many early Latter-day Saints in Nauvoo felt the Spirit® bear testimony that Smith's publication of "Fig. 2. King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head" was a true translation/interpretation of the ancient Egyptian writing and that the name of King Pharaoh was verily contained in the writing we see in the Facsimile. Joseph Smith was so arrogant that he even confirmed the age (3,500 years) of the mummies to be much older than they really were and he did so while claiming the "spirit of prophecy" and invoking "the name of Jesus Christ" and the "sealing power of the Melchesedek priesthood" during *that* declaration in testifying of the age of the mummies.

Joseph Smith was wrong. He had a false spirit about him and his testimony was a sham.

I so testify.

[canpakes]

Even canpakes could have probably written it.

I would add some snark. : D

[bill4long]

Yeah. Early 90s. The amusing thing to me is that more than one Mormon said the holy ghost confirmed to them that it was true!

Holy ghostism®​​ in Mormonism confirms a lot of things through spiritual feelings, emotions, and the release of brain chemicals but that doesn't make them true per se. It does, however, make certain things appear relevant to that person during that period of their life. I think it reasonable that many early Latter-day Saints in Nauvoo felt the Spirit® bear testimony that Smith's publication of "Fig. 2. King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head" was a true translation/interpretation of the ancient Egyptian writing and that the name of King Pharaoh was verily contained in the writing we see in the Facsimile. Joseph Smith was so arrogant that he even confirmed the age (3,500 years) of the mummies to be much older than they really were and he did so while claiming the "spirit of prophecy" and invoking "the name of Jesus Christ" and the "sealing power of the Melchesedek priesthood" during *that* declaration in testifying of the age of the mummies.

Joseph Smith was wrong. He had a false spirit about him and his testimony was a sham.

I so testify.

The average TBM apparently has never encountered a True Believing Catholic who has a holy spirit encounter with the Virgin Mary.

Or of people from other religions where spiritual experiences are a basis of confirmation.

Charismatics, Pentecostal, Hindus, Native Americans, and several more, I've had personal dialog with. Not to mention my own spiritual experiences. One thing I am conviced of, spiritual experiences are not a reliable index of Reality.

[bill4long]

Even canpakes could have probably written it.

I would add some snark. : D

[Shulem]

To keep his own people from this curse, Nephi prophetically prohibits the Nephites from marrying Lamanites, claiming that the Lamanites were marked with "a skin of blackness" to discourage such intermarriage.

The key element you are not really dealing with is that Don attributes a claim to Nephi. Don does not support that claim as true. By calling it Nephi’s claim, Don distances himself from the truth of the claim. He may be suggesting that Nephi adopted prejudiced rhetoric to discourage intermarriage because he believed that was what God wanted, and the result of discouraging intermarriage was a genetic isolation of the one group from the other.

Personally, I am a huge fan of the “Nephi was a self-righteous asshole” reading of the Book of Mormon. His dark side really blows up in the faces of the Nephites over the course of the book. They thought they were so great because they viewed their white skins as a sign of righteousness when they were clearly wrong about that. Skin did not matter. Faith did. The Lamanites carry on while the Nephites harden themselves and rush headlong to destruction. Don knows all this stuff, and you should probably give him more credit for the subtlety of his views and language than you do.

I would love Don to come here and tell us how it was that Nephi "prophetically" issued a false prophecy.

Bear in mind, the authoritative verse prior to the one (verse 21) in question says:

Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence.

Following verse 21 which mentions the skin of blackness, Nephi's authoritative claim as expressed by Bradley's use of the word "prophetically," is clearly tendered:

And thus saith the Lord God:

And the Lord spake it, and it was done.

And the Lord God said unto me:

So, let Bradley come here and deny the faith in Nephi's prophecy. I would love it. It's inevitable. Right?

[Shulem]

The key element you are not really dealing with is that Don attributes a claim to Nephi. Don does not support that claim as true. By calling it Nephi’s claim, Don distances himself from the truth of the claim. He may be suggesting that Nephi adopted prejudiced rhetoric to discourage intermarriage because he believed that was what God wanted, and the result of discouraging intermarriage was a genetic isolation of the one group from the other.

Bradley's book provides additional information about "The Lamanite Curse" and God's rationale behind it and compared it to what happened between the Israelites and Canaanite peoples of the Old Testament. His book focuses on finding as many parallels as he can about everything. That is what apologists love to do most! I should know because I was once an apologist.

Let's cut to the chase:

Another boundary separating the Lamanites from the Nephites was the Lamanite curse. It was this— the idea that the Lamanites, like the Canaanites, were divinely cursed—that defined the Lamanites for the Book of Mormon's Nephite narrators. In connection with their curse, the Lamanites were segregated from the Nephites, paralleling the outsider treatment of the Canaanites during the Israelites' Conquest narrative. The isolation of the Canaanites and the Lamanites is particularly evident in the Nephite marriage laws...

Bradley then cites another apologist who said: "A new law was then issued that no Nephite should intermarry with the Lamanites. The penalty for anyone who might break this law was affliction with a curse (see 2 Nephi 5:23)." Bradley continues (p. 188) by stating "the Nephites were proscribed from marrying Lamanites," which was understood by all the Book of Mormon prophets in which he says, "Thus, according to Mormon, the "mark" accompanying the Lamanite curse was imposed to prevent such intermixing."

And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women.

And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people, that they might not mix and believe in incorrect traditions which would prove their destruction.

Bradley continues to seal the parallel deal by stating: "The Book of Mormon narrator's descriptions of the curse and the injunction forbidding intermarriage cast the Lamanites in the role of the Canaanites of the new promised land." One need only turn to Deuteronomy 7 to confirm this marriage restriction was given by the Lord God rather than by a prejudiced mind of man. The next chapter in Bradley's book (Nephi's Temple) goes on about how king Nephi was inspired in all he did as God's Revelator and used divine gifts and means to carry out the will and mind of God through a spirit of prophecy. This of course invalidates Kishkumen's earlier statement because Nephi was acting for God, not himself.

[Shulem]

The key element you are not really dealing with is that Don attributes a claim to Nephi. Don does not support that claim as true. By calling it Nephi’s claim, Don distances himself from the truth of the claim. He may be suggesting that Nephi adopted prejudiced rhetoric to discourage intermarriage because he believed that was what God wanted, and the result of discouraging intermarriage was a genetic isolation of the one group from the other.

Do you think, Kish? When is the last time you actually read the Book of Mormon from a faithful perspective? Just look at the narrative of how the story unfolds and see how it makes no sense that Nephi thought to act independently in assuming what he claimed God wanted outside of direct revelation and see how it adds up in proving the marriage restriction ("Nephite marriage laws") from Nephi's perspective must have been a commandment from God. Surely, Bradley shares this perspective:

• Behold, it came to pass that I, Nephi, did cry much unto the Lord my God, because of the anger of my brethren

• And it came to pass that the Lord did warn me, that I, Nephi, should depart from them and flee

• And all those who would go with me were those who believed in the warnings and the revelations of God

• And we did observe to keep the judgments, and the statutes, and the commandments of the Lord in all things

• And I, Nephi, had also brought the records which were engraven upon the plates of brass; and also the ball, or compass

• Wherefore, I had been their ruler and their teacher, according to the commandments of the Lord

• And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it