John Dehlin: A Spy Story

[_Tator]

I hope I have learned my lesson about the inevitable results of starting a thread with JD's name on it. One's motives and intentions will be questioned. Your friends will ask you what the hell you are doing. Certain people will show up to vent their feelings about JD to the point that it becomes nearly impossible to talk about the subject of the OP.

I apologize to everyone. I regret constructing the thread as I did. I know I didn't mean what many think I meant by doing this, but now I know better. There are certain topics that always end in the same unfortunately predictable way. It's the nature of the beast.

Rev. your post is totally accurate in my opinion but no apology is necessary because it should not have centered on JD and MS and MD, I saw those as examples to expand the subject of spying in the church. I have my own story of being spied upon and I am sure others do too, but the thread took a turn and I think a lot of other personal examples have been lost in the discussion. You're right about sometimes it is just the nature of the beast.

[_Jesse Pinkman]

I hope I have learned my lesson about the inevitable results of starting a thread with JD's name on it. One's motives and intentions will be questioned. Your friends will ask you what the hell you are doing. Certain people will show up to vent their feelings about JD to the point that it becomes nearly impossible to talk about the subject of the OP.

I apologize to everyone. I regret constructing the thread as I did. I know I didn't mean what many think I meant by doing this, but now I know better. There are certain topics that always end in the same unfortunately predictable way. It's the nature of the beast.

Rev. your post is totally accurate in my opinion but no apology is necessary because it should not have centered on JD and MS and MD, I saw those as examples to expand the subject of spying in the church. I have my own story of being spied upon and I am sure others do too, but the thread took a turn and I think a lot of other personal examples have been lost in the discussion. You're right about sometimes it is just the nature of the beast.

I completely agree with Tator. And, Kish, this is a good thread. I think that the topic of spying in the Church is a valid one. I don't think it should be killed. Let's redirect this thread into the topic that you REALLY wanted to discuss. Seriously.

[_Ceeboo]

Hello honor!

The left turn was a collective decision

I'm not sure what difference that makes at all. The point is that it did indeed turn, no?

and it's a mistake to assume the thread was derailed that way.

Well, I certainly have no problem allowing you to provide your opinion - but - it is my opinion that it's not only not a mistake to assume that the thread was derailed that way - it is crystal clear that it was derailed - and it just as clear that is was derailed in that way. (Of course, this is just my opinion)

Clearly, as a topic it became touchy for a lot of people on all sides. And then the touchiness got touchy. Then we got to "f*** this, the ride's over."

No - we didn't get to "“F” this, the rides over." Clearly, the last 6-8 pages of this thread would strongly suggest that the ride is not over. It continues to move along - It's just moving in a completely different direction now - obviously, this ride is hardly over.

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Mayan Elephant]

I hope I have learned my lesson about the inevitable results of starting a thread with JD's name on it. One's motives and intentions will be questioned. Your friends will ask you what the hell you are doing. Certain people will show up to vent their feelings about JD to the point that it becomes nearly impossible to talk about the subject of the OP.

I apologize to everyone. I regret constructing the thread as I did. I know I didn't mean what many think I meant by doing this, but now I know better. There are certain topics that always end in the same unfortunately predictable way. It's the nature of the beast.

Try leaning into the fear a bit Kish. As a group, this topic is still cooking in a lot of people, including you.

I have read this thread very closely, and honestly, i have not a goddamn clue what this left turn is that you are talking about. I have some hunches, but really i don't know.

You may think it went south or turned left because people hate john dehlin and it is a lightning rod to mention him. That's simply not true.

I think, frankly, it went south when someone disagreed with you and your conclusions and your process. Disagreement with you feels like heavy heavy heavy contention. And for the years i have had an eye on this board, you lose your damned crap when you sense disagreement and contention where you do not have the upper hand.

You cherish your friends that tell you your posts are great, and you think anyone that doesn't think they are great is off-topic or misguided or angry.

Some of the brightest people and best writers on this board have been met with a crappy comment from you for not agreeing with you on the dehlin concepts, including Runtu. For chrissakes, Kish. I have seen Equality and JV and many more face the same treatment from you. Now Honorontheus too. These are not hateful or delusional people. And for godsakes, they are great and thoughtful writers with great additions. But, they disagree with you. So what? Embrace it.

This thread has more meat, more emotion, more thought in the writing and more information than almost any thread we have seen in months. It has followed an interesting and informative course. Embrace it.

If you can't handle a JD thread, ask yourself why. don't just ban them.

[_Mayan Elephant]

Let's redirect this thread into the topic that you REALLY wanted to discuss. Seriously.

Yeah. Let's. Lemmie wants that too. Let's do it!

[_Jesse Pinkman]

In an attempt to redirect--

The spying and/or "tattling" on each other seems to be encouraged in Mormon culture. It is always done in the guise of being "for the good" of the one being "tattled" on. What is really scary is that, particularly in Utah, I have seen cases where good people have, as a result, lost their jobs, ways to support their families for long periods, etc. If those who are managers are in Church power positions, all kinds of unfair circumstances can unravel, and this just isn't right.

I haven't really seen a lot of other Churches that have had that tight of a hold on its congregation. That is where the LDS Church sort of bleeds into cult territory.

What kind of choices do lay members have in changing this? Is it best to just, as Polygamy Porter, Sock Puppet, and other here have done? Just jump ship and leave? Or is there a way to change things within the walls?

[_Maksutov]

In an attempt to redirect--

The spying and/or "tattling" on each other seems to be encouraged in Mormon culture. It is always done in the guise of being "for the good" of the one being "tattled" on. What is really scary is that, particularly in Utah, I have seen cases where good people have, as a result, lost their jobs, ways to support their families for long periods, etc. If those who are managers are in Church power positions, all kinds of unfair circumstances can unravel, and this just isn't right.

I haven't really seen a lot of other Churches that have had that tight of a hold on its congregation. That is where the LDS Church sort of bleeds into cult territory.

What kind of choices do lay members have in changing this? Is it best to just, as Polygamy Porter, Sock Puppet, and other here have done? Just jump ship and leave? Or is there a way to change things within the walls?

I guess it comes down to the LDS member having a Bill of Rights. I'm more American than Utahan, so this was always a struggle for me. From my first days as a convert at BYU my idea of my "self" was under assault. Behavior I would reject from anyone else I somehow would not accept from someone because of their church office. Privacy of my own thoughts was one of those issues. Who I dated was another, as my branch president chewed me out for not dating girls in the branch. The fact that I had not chosen to go on a mission was something I was expected to constantly explain and defend. The church wanted me enough to convert me but then it really didn't want "me". After a while feeling became mutual...imagine that.

[_cwald]

I hope I have learned my lesson about the inevitable results of starting a thread with JD's name on it. One's motives and intentions will be questioned. Your friends will ask you what the hell you are doing. Certain people will show up to vent their feelings about JD to the point that it becomes nearly impossible to talk about the subject of the OP.

I apologize to everyone. I regret constructing the thread as I did. I know I didn't mean what many think I meant by doing this, but now I know better. There are certain topics that always end in the same unfortunately predictable way. It's the nature of the beast.

Rev. your post is totally accurate in my opinion but no apology is necessary because it should not have centered on JD and MS and MD, I saw those as examples to expand the subject of spying in the church. I have my own story of being spied upon and I am sure others do too, but the thread took a turn and I think a lot of other personal examples have been lost in the discussion. You're right about sometimes it is just the nature of the beast.

I am interested in hearing your experience about spying

[_Jesse Pinkman]

In an attempt to redirect--

The spying and/or "tattling" on each other seems to be encouraged in Mormon culture. It is always done in the guise of being "for the good" of the one being "tattled" on. What is really scary is that, particularly in Utah, I have seen cases where good people have, as a result, lost their jobs, ways to support their families for long periods, etc. If those who are managers are in Church power positions, all kinds of unfair circumstances can unravel, and this just isn't right.

I haven't really seen a lot of other Churches that have had that tight of a hold on its congregation. That is where the LDS Church sort of bleeds into cult territory.

What kind of choices do lay members have in changing this? Is it best to just, as Polygamy Porter, Sock Puppet, and other here have done? Just jump ship and leave? Or is there a way to change things within the walls?

I guess it comes down to the LDS member having a Bill of Rights. I'm more American than Utahan, so this was always a struggle for me. From my first days as a convert at BYU my idea of my "self" was under assault. Behavior I would reject from anyone else I somehow would not accept from someone because of their church office. Privacy of my own thoughts was one of those issues. Who I dated was another, as my branch president chewed me out for not dating girls in the branch. The fact that I had not chosen to go on a mission was something I was expected to constantly explain and defend. The church wanted me enough to convert me but then it really didn't want "me". After a while feeling became mutual...imagine that.

Very understandable!

Although I grew up as a Church member, my California household was, I guess a little unusual. My parents taught us, and firmly believed that family REALLY was FIRST. And that also meant family BEFORE Church! There were other Church members who didn't really "get" that, but that is the mantra I have always lived by, and continue to live by. We had family members who would be considered pretty severe "jack Mormons", as far as drinking, smoking, etc. was concerned. However, they would drop everything for another family member in need. Need help moving? They were there, with bells on...sick or well. You needed a ride? Help with babysitting? Car fixed? No problem. You can call in sick from work, but you can't call in sick from family. That's just the way it is.

I think that's why I have been able to successfully compartmentalize things. That was much more difficult for my ex husband to do...one of the things he didn't really understand about me.

One thing that John Dehlin attempted to do with his "Middle Way" campaign was to allow members to exercise the right to accept the Church on his/her own terms, rather than as an "all or nothing" entity. I was grateful for those early PowerPoint presentations he published. Of course, he ultimately ended up in a situation where he was excommunicated...but I don't know that it was this early campaign that was the primary cause.

What do you guys think? Should the Church be an "all or nothing" proposition? Can this tattletale/spying among Church leaders and members be curbed? Is it worth the effort to try, or is it better to just leave, and do everything you can to take your family with you?

[Guest]

What Maksutov says here rings so true to me, and I am neither a convert nor much of a Utahn. Even on a physical level, I felt uncomfortable with the degree to which others in the mission and at BYU presumed to get in my personal space and touch me. I grew up near DC, and people there hardly ever invaded one's personal space like that. Over time I got more accustomed to it, but I really did feel assaulted by the intrusiveness of it all.

The same is true of the ecclesiastical intrusiveness. Obviously, like most people out there, the very personal and detailed questions about issues of personal sexuality from the age of 12 years old on were borderline abusive. It is completely unacceptable for the Church to do. Invading the bedrooms of married couples is only slightly less creepy. One of the worst invasions was using young missionaries to ask women whether they had ever had an abortion in a baptismal interview. The many layers of wrongness there are staggering to contemplate.