The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

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_beastie
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _beastie »

It has been established that Emma was no fan of the Nauvoo Joseph and his polygamy. And yes, she lied to her son but her son forgave her. However, that does not establish that she would lie about the plates and be a fraudster or teach her children from a book of lies. That would be a leap.

There is nothing to my logic that shows emma wavering in her belief in the Book of Mormon. As far as different props being used I don't think that this would be possible. The possibility for success would be slight. Who would make the props? And where?

Here is the point: If emma was in on the fraud, the critics can not feel sorry for her about polygamy and her reaction to it. She would be guilty as a fraudster and deserve what she got. And I see nothing in her makeup that would make her just one more stupid woman who loved their man too much. That would be a stretch.

But here is your scenerio: Emma knew the fraud. She put up with polygamy because she loved her man. She was just a stupid woman.

But we need to remember that she witnessed Joseph Smith put his head in a hat to translate the plates. What prop was used for the Book of Mormon? Was it the same prop that Emma orginally felt? Or did Joseph Smith make a different prop? And then did Joseph Smith make a different prop for the 11 witnesses? But if all were fraudsters why use a prop at all?

Or was everybody that Joseph Smith recruited at that time just stupid?


First, I have no doubt that by your own personal logic, nothing can persuade you that your assertions are problematic. I’ve seen it play out on this board many times. There’s an example right on this thread. You assert that the early followers of Mormonism would have been happy to find out the whole thing was a hoax, a fraud – despite having given up all their earthly goods, relocated in often painful and difficult ways, and sometimes seeing family members and friends die due to their involvement in Mormonism. Your belief that they would have been happy to find out that all their sacrifices and pain were for naught, because it was just one big hoax would be plainly illogical to most people, and yet you still insist you are correct. So the fact that much of this conversation seems a stretch to you means little in terms of its logical strength.

There is undeniable evidence that Emma lied about something extremely important for the duration of her life. There is undeniable evidence that Emma perpetrated this lie against her own children. Emma was obviously protecting Joseph’s reputation, since her denials were often couched in reminders of what a good man Joseph was, and was likely ashamed of the whole affair. But I think it would take a significant amount of willingness to deny simple reality to refuse to admit that this indicates a willingness to lie about other things in order to protect Joseph’s reputation. I do think you have the prerequisite amount of willingness to deny simple reality, but hopefully not many others do.

There is also the troubling reality that Emma apparently felt no compunction to association with the various branches of Mormonism until her son became persuaded he should be the leader of one of those branches, many years after Joseph’s death. So her deep belief in Mormonism didn’t appear to be deep enough to persuade her of continued association, did it? Perhaps that belief was not as deep as you imagine. One could also make the argument if she sincerely believed in her husband's revelatory ability, she wouldn't have been willing to throw God's Revelation on the fire, and blatantly ignore the threat about her own salvation if she didn't give in to Joseph.

Now you insist that if a critic believes that Emma may have been a part of the fraud in that she could have lied about the plates and translation (which, by the way, is not a necessary conclusion, but a possible conclusion), that same critic is contradicting him/herself if the critic expresses sympathy for Emma’s situation. Is this some unwritten rule of the universe in your view? If an individual is guilty of a crime or wrong-doing, other human beings are no longer allowed to feel sympathy for other things that human being may have endured? My sympathy for Emma is admittedly limited. Although I am not certain what her options may have been, it does appear she could have always returned to her family, who appeared to love her. So yeah, I agree that she brought quite a bit of this on herself, including the polygamy nonsense. If a woman or man has acceptable options – and some women and men do not, that is why caution is advised - then if he/she chooses to remain in a situation that has caused significant pain in the past, then he/she is choosing some responsibility for that pain. That does not absolve the person who continues to inflict that pain, of course. While Emma may have made choices that resulted in her continued enduring the pain of her husband’s behavior, Joseph was still responsible for that behavior and for choosing to inflict pain on his wife.

I have no idea if there were props, who would have made them, or any of the details. I also have no idea if Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon himself, or if he plagiarized it from another source. I have no idea if all the witnesses were frauds, as well, or dupes. It’s not necessary to know these details to reasonably conclude it was a fraud, pious or non, and it doesn’t matter that critics have contradictory opinions on these points. People are regularly found guilty of crimes without the jury knowing every detail of how the crime was committed.


Let me put it this way. I have seen critics agree with theories that would contradict their previous statements. And that is the problem. It comes from desperation to grasp at any idea that is negative toward the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith or any other thing LDS. I have seen this when I posted briefly on the postmo site. As I told them years ago, all critic theories can not be true since these theories can contradict each other. One must go with one theory and hope for the best.


You seem to be unaware of the fact that there are divergent apologetic theories, as well. Is it loose or tight translation? Were there really horses or not? Do you hold apologists to the same strained standard to which you hold critics? Obviously not.

by the way, stupidity or smartness are not very useful qualifiers in discussing the propensity of human beings to be fooled by others, or the propensity to believe things without much legitimate cause for that belief. It is simply human nature. Our brains are not wired for logic and rationality. It takes a lot of effort to try and utilize those standards, and the results are necessarily limited.

So unless you’re willing to label, for example, all the believers of Scientology, or other odd religions, “stupid”, you shouldn’t demand that critics label all the believers of early Mormonism, or Mormonism today, stupid, either. It doesn’t have to do with native intelligence or lack thereof. It has to do with our intense desire for clear answers about life, and our desire for assurance, and the particular fashion in which our brains happen to be wired.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_EAllusion
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _EAllusion »

maklelan wrote:
You're right, that was a typo. Thanks for pointing it out. Incidentally, the counterpart to BCE is CE, and if you use AD you put it before the date.


I like how you try to salvage the sense you know what you are talking about with a pedantic grammatical correction.

If it was a mere typo, that's still a problem. Because if it was 600-700 CE, then you've hit the wrong timeframe and failed to support your argument. Either way, it's an egregious mistake that puts your condescension in a very unfavorable light.
Since it's been made clear that no one on this board really intends to discuss anything honestly, I'll be taking my leave. I'm not wasting any more of my time.

You mean you are leaving right after you've been embarrassed because no one here is honest? What a happy coincidence for you! To get this sudden inspiration to leave, because of all the dishonesty you see, right after you got caught in a serious misuse of a source is some fabulous serendipity. Don'tcha think? Good thing I know you're honest. Anyone who calls everyone else liars so often has to be.
_MAsh
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _MAsh »

beastie wrote:Mike –

I understood your post. I derive different – in fact, opposite – conclusions from the information you shared. I always knew that you would be confused by that.

Perhaps you will understand my comments better if you focus on this part of Emma’s statement:

They seemed to be pliable like st thick paper,


You have focused solely on the “thumbing”, while ignoring the context of the statement. The “thumbing” you are referencing takes place with rigid plates. She specifically said the plates were pliable.


Just to avoid confusion, and to make sure I understand you correctly (setting aside the issue of front/back engraving for a moment) you are claiming that "pliable" plates (like "thick paper") would not rustle if you ran your thumb up the stack?

If I'm following your argument correctly, you are claiming that according to Emma the paper had to be virtually like thick paper you might find in a book (like tin-foil) in order to meet Emma's description, yet something so thin (pliable) couldn't be engraven on both sides.

(Keep in mind, I wasn't addressing this argument-- if, indeed, this was the argument-- I was addressing the fact that others made here that the plates wouldn't rustle when being thumbed.)

I hope you'll agree that the rustling/thumbing issue is silly.

The pliable/engraved-on-both-sides has more obvious discussion value but I still find it some-what silly. First, as you point out at the end of your poste, human memory is fallible. I doubt Emma had a set of calipers with which to measure & compare to "thick paper." What does "thick" mean? What does "pliable" mean. It's like saying "big" or "ugly." I see nothing in Emma's description that automatically warrants a rejection of her claim that she thumbed "pliable" plates that made a metallic rustling sound (as I said earlier, even if they were actually tin).

Mike
_MAsh
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _MAsh »

Ok... I just did an off-the-cuff experiment at work.

I went to my goldsmith and got a small piece of 14kt gold that had been rolled out for repairs. It's VERY pliable (easy to bend with bare fingers). It measures (with expensive jewelry-calibrated calipers) .5mm thick. I then measured (1 page) of a manila foler (since I haven't the foggiest idea how thick "thick paper" in 1830 would be). It measured .25mm. Thinner, but pretty darn closer for feel & fallible memory.

Guess what? It can EASILY be engraved on both sides without any problems (in fact, I'm fairly certain that if it was .25mm it would engrave on both sides just fine as well). & guess what else, a stack of them could be thumbed and would make an metalic rustling sound when thumbed.

I hope this ends this silly argument.

Mike
_wenglund
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _wenglund »

Some Schmo wrote:But as I've said before, mopologists have the deck stacked against them going in. How does one defend the indefensible?


Any opposing view is indefensible to a closed and uncomprehending mind.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
"Why should I care about being consistent?" --Mister Scratch (MD, '08)
_Some Schmo
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _Some Schmo »

wenglund wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:But as I've said before, mopologists have the deck stacked against them going in. How does one defend the indefensible?


Any opposing view is indefensible to a closed and uncomprehending mind.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Is that your excuse?

Thanks, -Some Schmo-
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Sir,

I am sure you are not following Ms. Beastie's assertions based off Mrs. Smith's assertions that contradict Joseph Smith's assertions. If you will note, the plates that are on display in Utah (I provided a picture on this thread) are based off of Joseph Smith's description, which contradicts Emma's description. Ms. Beastie was asserting that Mrs. Smith meant "thumbing" when she said she "thumbed" the plates. Not a scrape. Not a rustle.

Now please. Go make hundreds of thin, pliable, golden plates/pages, engrave on them (on both sides) some symbols, bind them together tightly, stack an additional bound volume of brass or some other metallic plates on top of them, throw them in the back of your vehicle, drive all over the country, and then come back to us with your thoroughly scientific findings. My educated guess would be those thin, pliable or thumbable, golden plates/pages would be compressed and not easily thumbed, nor would the engravings be easily recognizable.

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

http://www.mormonwiki.com/Gold_Plates
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_MAsh
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _MAsh »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Sir,
Now please. Go make hundreds of thin, pliable, golden plates/pages, engrave on them (on both sides) some symbols, bind them together tightly, stack an additional bound volume of brass or some other metallic plates on top of them, throw them in the back of your vehicle, drive all over the country, and then come back to us with your thoroughly scientific findings. My educated guess would be those thin, pliable or thumbable, golden plates/pages would be compressed and not easily thumbed, nor would the engravings be easily recognizable.


My educated guess (after handling engraved gold) is that you are absolutely in left field. Please send the check for this purchase so I can prove you wrong.

Mike
_wenglund
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _wenglund »

Some Schmo wrote:Is that your excuse?


Yes...to a considerably lesser degree that some of my critic friends.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
"Why should I care about being consistent?" --Mister Scratch (MD, '08)
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Sir,

Please look at the link I provided you, and then compare that to Mrs. Smith's claims. The two do not match.

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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