Problematic John Dehlin, a short list

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
User avatar
pistolero
Teacher
Posts: 257
Joined: Wed May 05, 2021 10:38 pm

Re: Problematic John Dehlin, a short list

Post by pistolero »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 1:56 pm
This is how these things go. I don’t see a problem, in this era, to pull back the curtains on any public persona, big or small, and give them a good looksee. Do we continue the patterns of ignoring bad behaviors from questionable people because they do what we think are good things, or do we hold them accountable and get good people into positions of power and influence doing good things?

Best to nip that Crap in the bud, imho.
I don't have a particularly high expectation of MLK, Ghandi or JD in terms of their behaviour. They are all fighting for their cause. I'm not completely sure why I need them to be saints, as long as they operate within the law. But I agree, looksee, transparency or public scrutiny isn't a bad thing at all.

If they are claiming to be the mouth piece of God however, then I have a whole different level of expectations. Also if getting into and out of their movement or organisation is a chore, then that's no good either. Maybe I'm not as deep into Open Stories Foundation/MS as I could be, but I've never felt the levels of coercion and manipulation that I once felt in TSCC - and add into the mix some brainwashing that is hard to shake off after so many years - I still question much that I experience and think and wonder if it's a product of my upbringing.

I don't think it should be problematic for people to defend their position when criticised. Although JD should most definately take diazepam 30mins before he responds to the next criticism levelled at him.
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 9739
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: Problematic John Dehlin, a short lis

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Lem wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 7:25 am
Thank you. In my case I just had to put my head down and power through. I was alone and in graduate school in a very male dominant field, after being raised in an extremely patriarchal environment. I just knew that I had to do what I thought was right even though for many, many years, I had no one, and I mean NO ONE, in my life who supported me in that. Gradually, I was able to find a different way of living, and also a different group of people to live that life with. Sometimes I look back and think— how on earth did I make that transition??? It just doesn’t seem doable now, but back then, I think I didn’t realize how hard it would be and how long the pain would go on, so I just kept going.
That's amazing. I always admire the people who pulled themselves out of the cult pre-Internet era. It goes a long ways to show what kind of internal fortitude you had. I had serious issues with the "church" even before I left for my mission in '90, but as a young man I couldn't really understand what I was thinking and feeling context to the issues that were bothering me - I was also unusually susceptible to peer pressure so I just rolled over. During my mission I read SO MUCH and realized that things were not what they seemed, but I, as you say, powered through it and hit all the check marks because the brainwashing and social conventions were so strong. It wasn't long after I married in the temple (ugh, the temple) that I went inactive because I couldn't resolve what I knew and social pressures I felt. I was just going to stick it out, even though it made me miserable. Something about the "church" was damned me up, but I lacked the cognition to make that last leap of "the church isn't true, it's a lie".

Then in 2001, after years of being a terrible 'apologist' for the "church" someone who was also a faithful apologist (there was an old forum called ldstalk we frequented) left the faith and suggested we check out https://www.exmormon.org/. I couldn't believe it. This faithful guy, a true stalwart of the faith, was out. It took me weeks of opening and closing that site before I read this: https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/list.php?3,page=1 <- granted those stories are recent, but back then they had all the exit stories that were relevant to my era. One night while on leave from the Army and visiting my in-laws in Tennessee, I opened those stories and read throughout the night. I couldn't believe it. All these people were me. All their stories were mine. And that night my shelf collapsed and that was that for me.

I had already lost my mother due to my inactivity, and after that night I lost my wife, my kids, my worldview, everything. Thank god someone set up another forum called 'exmo-social' where I had the support to transition. It was messy, and I made a lot of mistakes - many of which were repeated here, but little by little I think I balanced out, as well as I could (I recognize I'm a deeply flawed human being, but at least the flaws are my own and not so much the conditioning of my Mormon world).

So. Lemmie. I admire you and others who found their footing without that support. I really don't know how you did it, but you DID IT. When you're on your deathbed I hope, as you're looking back on your life, you take pride in that accomplishment. It was and is a monument to your character.

- Doc
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 9739
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: Problematic John Dehlin, a short list

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

pistolero wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 3:09 pm
I don't have a particularly high expectation of MLK, Ghandi or JD in terms of their behaviour. They are all fighting for their cause. I'm not completely sure why I need them to be saints, as long as they operate within the law. But I agree, looksee, transparency or public scrutiny isn't a bad thing at all.

If they are claiming to be the mouth piece of God however, then I have a whole different level of expectations. Also if getting into and out of their movement or organisation is a chore, then that's no good either. Maybe I'm not as deep into Open Stories Foundation/MS as I could be, but I've never felt the levels of coercion and manipulation that I once felt in TSCC - and add into the mix some brainwashing that is hard to shake off after so many years - I still question much that I experience and think and wonder if it's a product of my upbringing.

I don't think it should be problematic for people to defend their position when criticised. Although JD should most definately take diazepam 30mins before he responds to the next criticism levelled at him.
I agree with you. They don't need to be Saints. Although things like Ghandi sleeping with girls, legit girls, naked, is bananas. Also his racism was, or is, something that should be discussed. I'm not a fan of the 'imperfect vessel' thing people use to excuse bad behavior. But whatevs. I will tell you I think what JD does is very important. I admire him for that. I admire what he's been able to provide for a lot of people transitioning out of Mormonsim, or even for those who choose to stay. He's been a godsend for a lot of people and I support what he's doing. Perhaps it's my skepticism post-Mormonism, but I also think we should all have our eyes wide open when being part of a cause, or supporting people who have a cause, because checking them from themselves, calling them out when they do wrong, is a healthy social trait. It also helps them stay good when what we need is good. And by doing so it helps all of us be better.

- Doc
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: Problematic John Dehlin, a short list

Post by dastardly stem »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 3:05 pm


I don't know. This obsession with Dehlin seems over the top. The dude is not perfect. Like all of us. But he offers something apparently people want and appreciate. I do. I listen to some of his podcasts still when it is one that interests me. And I donate $$ to Open Stories Foundation once in a while, just like I do to RFM. I sort of feel like you all ought to cut the man some slack.

Sorry, but what? Did you just accuse Meadowchik of being obsessed with Dehlin? The church does good for people too but that doesn't mean there's not negative aspects which are itching to mentioned and discussed. And, perhaps the most used apologetic for any criticism is "cut the man some slack" or "its not that bad".
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
User avatar
pistolero
Teacher
Posts: 257
Joined: Wed May 05, 2021 10:38 pm

Re: Problematic John Dehlin, a short list

Post by pistolero »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 3:16 pm
They don't need to be Saints. Although things like Ghandi sleeping with girls, legit girls, naked, is bananas. Also his racism was, or is, something that should be discussed. I'm not a fan of the 'imperfect vessel' thing people use to excuse bad behavior.
Bananas it is indeed. Culturally, I grew up believing Ghandi to be revered. When I found out about his shenanigans I was sad, disappointed, ... blah... probably devastated on a level.

I don't want to excuse bad behaviour, just recognise that people aren't saints. But clearly, sleeping naked with young girls to test your self will sounds absolutely bananas, as you say, and seems to cross the line of what constitutes bad behaviour. I think? I find it hard to even address it in my head, so much was my cultural reverence for Ghandi.
Last edited by pistolero on Mon May 24, 2021 3:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
pistolero
Teacher
Posts: 257
Joined: Wed May 05, 2021 10:38 pm

Re: Problematic John Dehlin, a short list

Post by pistolero »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 3:05 pm
I sort of feel like you all ought to cut the man some slack.
Give Brother Joseph a break?
Jason Bourne
Star A
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon May 24, 2021 2:17 pm

Re: Problematic John Dehlin, a short list

Post by Jason Bourne »

dastardly stem wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 3:24 pm
Jason Bourne wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 3:05 pm


I don't know. This obsession with Dehlin seems over the top. The dude is not perfect. Like all of us. But he offers something apparently people want and appreciate. I do. I listen to some of his podcasts still when it is one that interests me. And I donate $$ to Open Stories Foundation once in a while, just like I do to RFM. I sort of feel like you all ought to cut the man some slack.

Sorry, but what? Did you just accuse Meadowchik of being obsessed with Dehlin? The church does good for people too but that doesn't mean there's not negative aspects which are itching to mentioned and discussed. And, perhaps the most used apologetic for any criticism is "cut the man some slack" or "its not that bad".
No from what I see jumping back in here, as a very, very long time member of the prior board, is a whole crap load of Dehlin threads with hundreds of pages of posts. Ya all seem rather obsessed with the dude. That was my point. Don't like it. I am at the point in my life and journey out of Mormonism and post Mormonism where I don't really give a rat's ass what anyone thinks about what I say.
jpatterson
Regional Representative
Posts: 673
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:17 am

Re: Problematic John Dehlin, a short list

Post by jpatterson »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 3:30 pm

No from what I see jumping back in here, as a very, very long time member of the prior board, is a whole Crap load of Dehlin threads with hundreds of pages of posts. Ya all seem rather obsessed with the dude. That was my point. Don't like it. I am at the point in my life and journey out of Mormonism and post Mormonism where I don't really give a rat's ass what anyone thinks about what I say.
"You can leave JD but you just can't leave him alone."
Jason Bourne
Star A
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon May 24, 2021 2:17 pm

Re: Problematic John Dehlin, a short list

Post by Jason Bourne »

jpatterson wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 3:46 pm
Jason Bourne wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 3:30 pm

No from what I see jumping back in here, as a very, very long time member of the prior board, is a whole Crap load of Dehlin threads with hundreds of pages of posts. Ya all seem rather obsessed with the dude. That was my point. Don't like it. I am at the point in my life and journey out of Mormonism and post Mormonism where I don't really give a rat's ass what anyone thinks about what I say.
"You can leave John Dehlin but you just can't leave him alone."
\

Seeing your posts here it seems you are the one who cannot leave Dehlin alone. I get your comment as a comparison to leaving Mormonism but not leaving it alone. It may apply if you had had a life time of abuse and trauma from Dehlin. Otherwise not so much. You seem particular obsessed with the man.
User avatar
pistolero
Teacher
Posts: 257
Joined: Wed May 05, 2021 10:38 pm

Re: Problematic John Dehlin, a short list

Post by pistolero »

jpatterson wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 3:46 pm
Jason Bourne wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 3:30 pm

No from what I see jumping back in here, as a very, very long time member of the prior board, is a whole Crap load of Dehlin threads with hundreds of pages of posts. Ya all seem rather obsessed with the dude. That was my point. Don't like it. I am at the point in my life and journey out of Mormonism and post Mormonism where I don't really give a rat's ass what anyone thinks about what I say.
"You can leave John Dehlin but you just can't leave him alone."
If Rosebud ever needed a title for her autobiography, that would be it.
Post Reply