Voldemort = He Who Must Not Be Named = Kevin?

[_dartagnan]

Harmony noted that your bald assertion was made in ignorance regarding the meaninglessness of message boards dissuading people from their original positions. She corrected you thusly:

Harmony: "We have at least a couple of posters who once posted on the Mormon Apologists team. Now they don't. Same style, same logic, different conclusions."

Charity: "From what I hear about at least one, it wasn't a message board which changed his mind."

Californiakid:"I sense the gossip-mongering work of Dr. Peterson here. Referring to Kevin Graham, no doubt."

Charity:"The only rumor I heard was that someone got his head handed to him in a basket when he was caught unprepared, got his pride whomped, and then wanted to blame his bruised ego on the Church, the general authorities, and every TBM who wouldn't lick his wounds to make him feel better."

Three hours after Trevor criticized your comments and after I explained what actually happened with that incident between me and Metcalfe, you then try to play us all for fools by saying you were never referring to me. After CK noted there was "no doubt" you were referring to me, you didn't deny it in your response. Of course you were alluding to me. Everyone knew you were. I am perhaps the most notable ex-FAIRite over here (I don't know any other MD regular who has written articles that are still posted on the FAIR website) and everyone is familiar with this lame story about my alleged bruised ego over a spat with a critic. You cannot pretend you were ignorant of thsi in light of pacman's post. You cannot pretend that you thought nobody would draw this conclusion and make this connection with me.

You only started denying you were referring to me when you realized the crowd reaction wasn't going to be congratulatory. Gossip isn't rewarded here like it is at your home base. So you started lying about referring to another non-existent poster.

When asked to provide the name you act like you're protecting this poster when all you're really doing to trying to hold out a plausible escape route for your own embarrassment. If your scenario is really true, then others must know about it too. Ultimately all you can claim is "what you heard," which is the usual TBM gossip nonsense.

The fact is, if this " other" poster exists, he must also post on this forum, given the context of harmony's comment. We know just about everyone here who has left MAD, and nobody except me has ever been accused of switching sides because or lost pride in a bout with Metcalfe. All former Madites here are pretty open and forthcoming with their reasons and give into embarrassment by admitting to having once been a TBM. What you say doesn't make sense. There isn't anyone here who would be embarrassed about losing an argument to critics.

The fact is William Schryver and pacman recreated the scenario between Metcalfe and myself. They have been propagating this twisted version of what happened so you and the other sick apologists at MAD could find some way to discredit me and mitigate the significance of my departure. For you, it couldn't have anything to do with me actually switching because the other side made a stronger case. No, for TBMs like you, you're indoctrinated to view it in a much more sinister fashion. The person who leaves must be sinning in some way. William and pacman managed to use this event to their advantage so they could propose the scenario whereby I left because my ego was bruised. They can do this at MAD where it goes unchallenged by those who need to believe this.What they have said in the past about me is found almost verbatim in your rumor-mongering post here. And just yesterday pacman proved beyond a doubt that the two of you are still yapping about this, in direct reference to me, in private exchange.

You can insult our intelligence all you want, but the truth is obvious to me. Pacmans comments made it clear he was excited to get some new juicy information from you. Just look at how giddy and idiotic he sounded. Leaping to the ridiculous assumption that I left the country so I could fly under the radar! He wasn't joking either. He really believed this.

These are the kinds of people you resonate with. Congratulations.

The folks here at MAD far outclass that group of nimrods you constantly seek attention and acceptance from over there.

[_charity]

Are you serious?! Somehow, that's not much of a disgusting surprise. Disgusting yes...surprise, no.

Charity,

You are doing your best to paint yourself as innocent of any wrong-doing. Yet, you said something that made pacman cry out "are you serious?" and label it "disgusting". What exactly had you revealed that prompted that reaction?

I would like to know, yes. Thanks.

[_karl61]

You can try to spin your way out of this any way you want, but you remain a liar, and your pals like pacman are truly class acts.

Pacman's comments make it perfectly clear you were sending him more juicy fodder for his sick theory. Accusing me of "flying under the radar" by leaving the USA?

Don't you people ever get a life?

Nothing has changed over there. It is the same pathetic gossip pad as it has always been.

Is it "juicy rumor mongering" to tell someone what you yourself said?

I never said anything about Brazil. I didn't know you were in Brazil. Why should I care where you are? I hate to break it to you, but I don't spend any time at all thinking about you, except if a question is asked or you make some silly remark here on the board that I feel like I have to speak up against and not let a falsehood stand unchallenged.

Charity: he posts about Brazil all the time. How could you not know that as it seems if there is anyone you will follow it's Kevin because the MADites are concerned about what he writes about the Church.

regards,
thestyleguy

[_charity]

.

You can insult our intelligence all you want, but the truth is obvious to me. Pacmans comments made it clear he was excited to get some new juicy information from you. Just look at how giddy and idiotic he sounded. Leaping to the ridiculous assumption that I left the country so I could fly under the radar! He wasn't joking either. He really believed this.

These are the kinds of people you resonate with. Congratulations.

The folks here at MAD far outclass that group of nimrods you constantly seek attention and acceptance from over there.

A little bit of a Freudian slip there? The folks here a MAD?

The constant name calling and insulting is a sure sign that you are extremely defensive. And for those who don't believe me on a previous post about the connection between anger and pride, it is so obvious here a high school student could see it. Your need to express your superiority keeps popping out in the way you try to demean others. A dead giveaway.

That is why I won't tell you the name of the person I was referring to. As soon as runtu gives me his promise I will tell him who and the circumstances. Then you will have to turn on one of your own instead of an outsider. I wonder if your pride will lead you to that? Maybe runtu won't want to get into that place, himself.

[_Trevor]

The constant name calling and insulting is a sure sign that you are extremely defensive. And for those who don't believe me on a previous post about the connection between anger and pride, it is so obvious here a high school student could see it. Your need to express your superiority keeps popping out in the way you try to demean others. A dead giveaway.

That is why I won't tell you the name of the person I was referring to. As soon as runtu gives me his promise I will tell him who and the circumstances. Then you will have to turn on one of your own instead of an outsider. I wonder if your pride will lead you to that? Maybe runtu won't want to get into that place, himself.

Although I am not in favor of "name-calling," I notice that the person he most insults is you. I really don't see that Kevin is generally defensive. If anything, he has looked for opportunities to engage his opposition, but they have consistently backed away from the fray. The more I learn about the Book of Abraham issues, the more I can see why. There really is no good answer to Kevin that amounts to Joseph Smith having translated Egyptian on the papyri, or any papyri. That solution really cannot stand.

I am not against anyone believing that the Book of Abraham is inspiring scripture. After all, the Book of Abraham is no worse than the Bible in that way. And, perhaps one can believe that in some way Joseph received revelation that brought forth divine truth or messages from the past. I wouldn't go there, but I can understand how one might.

The problem I have is with the defense of indefensible claims about Joseph's ability to translate Egyptian with divine assistance. I have seen absolutely nothing that would suggest he did have this ability.

As for this whole business about the mystery person--let's put this behind us. I can even conceive of a possible scenario in which the person you are talking about is me. I would never characterize what happened to me in the way you do, but, if that is the case, I have no problem with you calling me out personally. I think it is highly unlikely that I am your mystery person, if one does exist, but I simply put this out there to say, essentially, "put up or shut up" or maybe "knock it off." All of this childish gossip and all of these secrets are so grade school.

[_charity]

Charity: he posts about Brazil all the time. How could you not know that as it seems if there is anyone you will follow it's Kevin because the MADites are concerned about what he writes about the Church.

regards,
thestyleguy

I haven't been on this board very long, and I haven't seen any posts about Brazil since I have been here. And to tell you the truth, I haven't seen a lot of posting on MA&D that that talks about Kevin at all. Just once in a while someone will bring up a Book of Abraham topic and his name will be mentioned in conjunction with that.

I joined the FAIR board just as Kevin was in the process of being warned, suspended and then banned. I thought that was because he was making some very "heated" posts about Muslimism. I recall some moderator comments about keeping politics off the board, and suspending him when he wouldn't. As I recall the banning was not because of Book of Abraham issues.

Haven't you noticed the fairly thick paranoia around here? People at FAIR and MA&D don't think Kevin is that much of a blip on the radar as far as apologetics goes. I suppose the only thing that gets under their skin is personal attacks against people like Dr. Gee, Will Schryver and Dr. Peterson.

If anyone at FAIR is "follwoing" anyone in their Book of Abraham concerns, it is going to be Metcalfe, not Kevin. Metcalfe is the one with the standing, the scholarship and the "point man" position on the Book of Abraham. Kevin isn't an Egyptiologist. Kevin may have read extensively but that doesn't replace scholarship. So why would any of the "greater lights" at FAIR spend any time "following him around?"

[_Trevor]

If anyone at FAIR is "follwoing" anyone in their Book of Abraham concerns, it is going to be Metcalfe, not Kevin. Metcalfe is the one with the standing, the scholarship and the "point man" position on the Book of Abraham. Kevin isn't an Egyptiologist. Kevin may have read extensively but that doesn't replace scholarship. So why would any of the "greater lights" at FAIR spend any time "following him around?"

And Metcalfe is an Egyptologist?

You really expect us to believe that no one over there has the slightest interest in Kevin? Come on!

[_Runtu]

runtu, If you will swear on your good name and your mother's life, I will pm you the name. But you cannot tell anyone off board or on. Do you agree? And yes, the answer on the board would be, "She told me who it was, and it wasn't Kevin." If you agree, I will pm you as soon as I see it.

I already said I would do that. And I'm a man of my word.

[_charity]

[quote="Trevor"]

Although I am not in favor of "name-calling," I notice that the person he most insults is you. I really don't see that Kevin is generally defensive. If anything, he has looked for opportunities to engage his opposition, but they have consistently backed away from the fray. The more I learn about the Book of Abraham issues, the more I can see why. There really is no good answer to Kevin that amounts to Joseph Smith having translated Egyptian on the papyri, or any papyri. That solution really cannot stand.

I can see that there are going to be disagreements. Especially when the word "translate" keeps getting in the way. I don't think anything that Joseph did can really be called "translating." He certainly didn't follow any process at all of what we think of as translating with the Book of Mormon. The Book of Moses was some kind of revelatory process, without any kind of plates, papyri, etc. I don't know how he received the Book of Abraham, and I think the efforts of the critics to assume that he was looking at the papyri, pretending Old Testament understand the Egyptian characters and then "translating" them is a false picture.

I am not against anyone believing that the Book of Abraham is inspiring scripture. After all, the Book of Abraham is no worse than the Bible in that way. And, perhaps one can believe that in some way Joseph received revelation that brought forth divine truth or messages from the past. I wouldn't go there, but I can understand how one might.

Thank you. And I can understand how you view the Book of Abraham.

The problem I have is with the defense of indefensible claims about Joseph's ability to translate Egyptian with divine assistance. I have seen absolutely nothing that would suggest he did have this ability.

And I see that he did. Again, we can agree to disagree.

As for this whole business about the mystery person--let's put this behind us. I can even conceive of a possible scenario in which the person you are talking about is me. I would never characterize what happened to me in the way you do, but, if that is the case, I have no problem with you calling me out personally. I think it is highly unlikely that I am your mystery person, if one does exist, but I simply put this out there to say, essentially, "put up or shut up" or maybe "knock it off." All of this childish gossip and all of these secrets are so grade school.[

I don't know if it is you or not, because I only know the person's real life name. I have no intention of calling anyone out. When I pm'ed pacman, I did so in response to a question that appeared on the MA&D message board. And since I was quoting only Kevin's own words, I thought I was ending gossip. The way to end speculation is with the truth. I had not predicted pacman's response. What I said was in a pm. He took what I said and went off on a tangent. I have written to him to express my displeasure over it.

I would be glad to have done with the misrepresentations of my position. I would certainly like to be done with Kevin's continued attacks on me. But I hope you can see from his behavior why I wouldn't want to put any person's real name into his hands. He seems to lack control here.
/quote]

[_Runtu]

I can see that there are going to be disagreements. Especially when the word "translate" keeps getting in the way. I don't think anything that Joseph did can really be called "translating." He certainly didn't follow any process at all of what we think of as translating with the Book of Mormon. The Book of Moses was some kind of revelatory process, without any kind of plates, papyri, etc. I don't know how he received the Book of Abraham, and I think the efforts of the critics to assume that he was looking at the papyri, pretending Old Testament understand the Egyptian characters and then "translating" them is a false picture.

Except that's exactly what he said he was doing.

Thank you. And I can understand how you view the Book of Abraham.

If the Book of Abraham is in any way said to be true, it must be, as you said, not a "translation" as we know it. Of course, that means that we must disregard the word of the translator.

And I see that he did. Again, we can agree to disagree.

You must have a different idea of what translating is than I do. I thought you just said he didn't really translate the Egyptian.

I don't know if it is you or not, because I only know the person's real life name. I have no intention of calling anyone out. When I pm'ed pacman, I did so in response to a question that appeared on the MA&D message board. And since I was quoting only Kevin's own words, I thought I was ending gossip. The way to end speculation is with the truth. I had not predicted pacman's response. What I said was in a pm. He took what I said and went off on a tangent. I have written to him to express my displeasure over it.

Well, then, please confirm that you did not mean Kevin.

I would be glad to have done with the misrepresentations of my position. I would certainly like to be done with Kevin's continued attacks on me. But I hope you can see from his behavior why I wouldn't want to put any person's real name into his hands. He seems to lack control here.

I'm not a fan of attacks, either, but you make it sound as if Kevin is this out of control hatemonger.