This is what archeologists do.

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

Let me get this straight. From now on, if any archeologist - anywhere - discovers anything, that's good news for the Book of Mormon because it proves that all the discovering has not yet been done? So maybe, because archeologists found a bit of wall in Jerusalem, there's still evidence to show for a major American civilization of millions of people?



Actually seth, this is how real science and real scholarship proceed, by admitting that all the discovering has not been done and that all theories are tentative forever. My brother in law Mark used to tell me that Nazareth didn't exist, and that this was part of the mythology that had grown up around Jesus. When he had been in school, it apparently wasn't known. He didn't keep up on the relevant scholarship and time passed him by.

Far too much of what goes on in the humanities is the protection of academic turf and of intellectual agendas. The whole enterprise would proceed much faster and more efficiently with much less hubris and a great deal more humility in the face of the vast abyss of what we don't know that stretches before us.

The discovery of Ebla should have taught academic dogmatists who criticize things like the existence of Book of Mormon cultures to dig more and talk less, in my estimation.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_karl61
_Emeritus
Posts: 2983
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:29 pm

Post by _karl61 »

charity wrote:
truth dancer wrote:

Charity, what you have seen is responses from people who are amazed that you are once again not understanding. Charity... please read the following carefully.

There is NO on this board (or any non-believer I have ever heard), who would state that there will never ever be any new archaeological discoveries.

What many will say, is that the likelihood of anyone finding archaeological evidence that supports many of the claims in the Book of Mormon is very unlikely.

Do you understand the difference?

While OF COURSE there will be new archaeological discoveries in the Americas, the chance of anything coming to light that supports various Book of Mormon claims seems remote.

You seem to think non-believers assert there will never ever be any new archaeological discoveries in the Americas.

I have no idea why you think this... I have certainly never heard such a thing from non-believers.

OK... to repeat one more time:

No one is suggesting there will never ever be any new archaeoligcal discoveries.

I hope this helps.

~dancer~


I understand that many, if not most, who post here would guess that new discoveries will be made. But they still continue to put forward the idea that the current failure to find anything confirming Book of Mormon archeology means there is nothing to find. This is why I post those "surprise" archeological findings. It is not the new discovery, it is the SURPRISE that is important.

Suprise at finding something puts it outside the day to day occurrance. When you walk to your mailbox, you aren't surprised at finding mail there. Whne you are an archeologist at a dig, you think you know what you are going to find. Surprise is something different.


I think everyone would be excited if a true find were made. The problem is when you talk about Book of Mormon acheology - maybe that's not the word I'm looking for - there are scholars - non believing scholars who put the Book of Mormon right where history puts it - in New York in the late 1820's with many of the thoughts of that area in the book. When non believing scholars - such as Dan Vogel demonstrate that the "great abominable church" is the masons and does this very clearly - believers suddenly can not see/read.
I want to fly!
_charity
_Emeritus
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:30 pm

Post by _charity »

beastie wrote:
I think maybe Olmec/Jaredite is a good match. Maya doesn't seem to match times, being both earlier and later than the Nephite civilization of 600 B.C. to 400 A.D. But I am flexible. I calmly await other archeological discoveries. I just probably won't be surprised.


What?!?!??!?!??!?!?!??!?!??!?!?!!!

Please clarify how the Maya don't match the times.

And you didn't see my post which was smack in the middle of the back and forth we were having on that thread? Perhaps that is part of your problem, selective reading.


Maya Pre-Classic is 1800 B.C. Nephites 600 B.C. Maya Post Classic 1500 A.D. Nephites 400 A.D. Why the ???????

I do not spend all day on the message board. Someetimes I miss a page. So shoot me.
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

Maya Pre-Classic is 1800 B.C. Nephites 600 B.C. Maya Post Classic 1500 A.D. Nephites 400 A.D. Why the ???????


From my summary of Demarest's timeline:

Note: there are minor variations within the exact dating of the specified time periods, and some variation in terminology. Some scholars still refer to the PreClassic Period as the Formative Period, for example. However, this timeline represents generally accepting dating and terminology. [1]

* Paleo-Indian Period - 12,000 BC to 7,000 BC
* Archaic Period – 7,000 BC to 2,000 BC
* Early Preclassic Period – 2,000 BC to 1,000 BC
* Middle Preclassic Period – 1,000 BC to 400 BC
* Late Preclassic Period – 400 BC to 300 AD
* Early Classic Period – 300 AD to 600 AD
* Late Classic Period – 600 AD to 900 AD
* Postclassic Period – 900 AD to 1,542 AD

Some scholars refer to the smaller time period at the end of the Late Preclassic period and beginning of the Early Classic period as “ProtoClassic”.

Comments:

Yes, it's true that the Maya long predated the Book of Mormon time period, and lasted long after the Book of Mormon time period. But LGT presupposes that the Lehites were all subsumed into a larger, pre-existing population, and that the so-called extermination of the Nephites was likely either the elimination of a particular line of royalty, or the destruction of a single polity.

So when you say it "doesn't match", you make it sound like the Maya would have to have originated at the same time the Lehite colony arrived, and ended with the end of the Book of Mormon time period. This fundamentally contradicts the notions of LGT.

My ??????? are because I'm truly befuddled by what you are trying to say.

I mean really - if you are going to claim that the Maya were not involved at all in the Book of Mormon story, even as the "unmentioned others", or maybe part of the mass of Lamanites, then you're going to have to move the Book of Mormon outside the region, which defeats the whole purpose of LGT.

(the whole purpose of the LGT is to place the Book of Mormon in the only place on the American continents that had complex even society during the Book of Mormon time frame to even hope to qualify)

Besides, Clark is happy to use the term Maya for Nephite artifacts. He apparently thinks the time frame matches. It's truly bizarre you're contesting this, except maybe because you don't want to admit that Demarest's comments apply quite directly to the Book of Mormon.

But we all know Demarest thinks all the discovering has been done. :O
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Blixa
_Emeritus
Posts: 8381
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:45 pm

Post by _Blixa »

From my reading, admittedly limited, the Mayan civilization is usually divided into three time periods which span around 3,000 years. The Pre-Classic from 2000 B.C.E--250 C.E., the Classic Period from 250 C.E.--900 C.E., and the Post-Classic from 900 C.E.--1500 C.E.

So I don't understand charity's reply of

Maya Pre-Classic is 1800 B.C. Nephites 600 B.C. Maya Post Classic 1500 A.D. Nephites 400 A.D. Why the ???????
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_mentalgymnast

Re: This is what archeologists do.

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Anyone watched the FARMS DVD, "Journey of Faith?"

The reason I ask is, if we can get the Lehites to the shores of the Old World, building a boat, would that hold any interest?

How come everyone keeps tromping around on the other side of the ocean to the exclusion of looking at some interesting "evidences" in the Old World?

Just curious.

Regards,
MG
_charity
_Emeritus
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:30 pm

Post by _charity »

beastie wrote:
I mean really - if you are going to claim that the Maya were not involved at all in the Book of Mormon story, even as the "unmentioned others", or maybe part of the mass of Lamanites, then you're going to have to move the Book of Mormon outside the region, which defeats the whole purpose of LGT.

(the whole purpose of the LGT is to place the Book of Mormon in the only place on the American continents that had complex even society during the Book of Mormon time frame to even hope to qualify)

Besides, Clark is happy to use the term Maya for Nephite artifacts. He apparently thinks the time frame matches. It's truly bizarre you're contesting this, except maybe because you don't want to admit that Demarest's comments apply quite directly to the Book of Mormon.

But we all know Demarest thinks all the discovering has been done. :O


I didn't say the Maya weren't around. I said Nephites=Mayans doesn't seem to work.Of course, it may be that a people, called the Mayans were in the area from 10,000 B.C. on down. Then the Nephites came in and were involved, even deeply so in that civilization for a time, and after their extinction a part of the society called Mayan continued for several hundred years. I am patient. We will know the facts some day.
_Trevor
_Emeritus
Posts: 7213
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:28 pm

Re: This is what archeologists do.

Post by _Trevor »

charity wrote:Here is one reason. James Hilton said he made it up. Joseph Smith said it was a real history of real people. Of course, you could assume that both men were lying, that Hilton had received his book by revelation and Joseph Smith made his up.


Actually, whereas Joseph Smith based his Book of Mormon mythology on a mish-mash of Biblical stories and mound-builder legends, James Hilton based Shangi-La on the legendary city of Shambhala.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shambhala
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

I didn't say the Maya weren't around. I said Nephites=Mayans doesn't seem to work.Of course, it may be that a people, called the Mayans were in the area from 10,000 B.C. on down. Then the Nephites came in and were involved, even deeply so in that civilization for a time, and after their extinction a part of the society called Mayan continued for several hundred years. I am patient. We will know the facts some day.


You specifically said the time frame didn't match. You said:

Maya doesn't seem to match times, being both earlier and later than the Nephite civilization of 600 B.C. to 400 A.D.


You have yet to clarify this statement.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_charity
_Emeritus
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:30 pm

Re: This is what archeologists do.

Post by _charity »

Trevor wrote:
charity wrote:Here is one reason. James Hilton said he made it up. Joseph Smith said it was a real history of real people. Of course, you could assume that both men were lying, that Hilton had received his book by revelation and Joseph Smith made his up.


Actually, whereas Joseph Smith based his Book of Mormon mythology on a mish-mash of Biblical stories and mound-builder legends, James Hilton based Shangi-La on the legendary city of Shambhala.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shambhala


I read the wiki, too. But did Hilton claim revelation from God? Special interpreters?
Post Reply