Marital Manipulation

[_why me]

And vice a versa too. All need to become more compassionate, understanding and charitable toward spouses. However, if I were a active member and my spouse was hostile toward the church, I would take it as a personal hostility toward me. And that would be a problem.

The definition of hostile and hostility is very subjective. Please define.

Actively seeking to change a belief sytem to conform with his or her belief system by actively engaging in antimormon propaganda at the dinner table, when watching TV, when I was reading a book, while driving a car etc etc.

And with threats of divorce if the person didn't change his or her ways.

[_why me]

:=)

[_Pokatator]

And vice a versa too. All need to become more compassionate, understanding and charitable toward spouses. However, if I were a active member and my spouse was hostile toward the church, I would take it as a personal hostility toward me. And that would be a problem.

The definition of hostile and hostility is very subjective. Please define.

Actively seeking to change a belief sytem to conform with his or her belief system by actively engaging in antimormon propaganda at the dinner table, when watching TV, when I was reading a book, while driving a car etc etc.

And with threats of divorce if the person didn't change his or her ways.

It just seemed to me from your first post that you displayed the classic Mormon attitude of taking anything that is not positive of the church and taking it personal. I still think your explanation is subjective. It depends on what is considered "anti-mormon". If the conversation is fact is that anti-mormon? What is propaganda?

Anti-mormon and propaganda again are subjective and defined by the individual. From what we see on these boards there are two running definitions and that would probably be the same pattern within a marriage.

I do believe that the threat of divorce is hostile and I know this tactic very well. In fact every tactic and condition the Trinity identified in her OP was used on me. All I did was question things at the time, no promoting of anything because I didn't know anything at the time and I was considered "hostile".

I feel that that same pattern and phenomena is alive a well on these boards. If you deviate from the "herd" mentally within the church you are ganged up on and driven out of the herd.

[cinepro]

I think you could change the circumstances and come up with what parents in bitter disputes do all the time. I have seen non-LDs couples do it with all kinds of situations. Individuals who have been hurt and betrayed often fall over the edge like that.

But I think the spouse who is leaving the faith bears a lot of responsiblity in how that happens.

I have a daughter, married in the temple, whose husband has left the Church. They have a strong and happy marriage. The husband remained respectful and supportive of her continued faith. They have family home evening, home teachers, he goes to Church to hear the kids speak or perform, does not complain about her attending the temple or doing her callings. He does not try to convince the children to leave the Church.

I also know a family that has broken up, the couple divorced, the dad with Wednesday night and every other weekend with a child. The husband decided the Church wasn't true, constantly harangued his wife over how stupid she was to stay with it, would complain at any effort she made in a church calling, would not allow home teachers, would not allow her to have family home evening.

It isn't about whether a person is a member of the Church or not. It is about respecting and loving your spouse and wanting them to be happy.

I think that is great, Charity. I think dodging the perils of a mixed marriage is an art requiring a great deal of communication skill. I have seen many couples do this effectively, and be able to even part ways amicably with the children's best interests at heart (and respecting the individual rights of each parent) as they proceed in their lives. That is an ideal we all should shoot for.

However. The most classic "war of the roses" divorces I have seen have been from temple married Mormon couples. And like I said in the initial post I think the temple marriage carries greater stakes whenever things fall apart, particularly when children are involved. There's just something about a spouse leaving the faith that seems to have connotations of betrayal within the family unit. I understand it to some extent, but will be happy for the day when couples can resolve their issues on a more respectful level.

I also notice that when a person leaves the faith, it almost always brings a renewed desire to place emphasis on the family, how ironic is that. Particularly in cases where the disbeliever becomes agnostic/atheistic. I think they have a greater awareness that this life and these relationships are what it is about. I am going on a weekend retreat next weekend with six women, two who are currently going through a divorce. One of these women's situation is very bitter, and her parents and extended family have turned against her and are rooting for the husband with all things related to custody and support due to her abandonment of Mormonism. My heart breaks for her because her children and their welfare is what she is all about. I do my best to be supportive to these friends, but find it difficult to be able to offer helpful advice in how to diffuse situations when they get to this level of conflict.

Edited to add a word because I was typing too fast for my brain. ;)

[_asbestosman]

Your mother in-laws father passed away, or your wife's father? I am sorry to hear that either way.

Actually, both have passed on, but my wife's grandpa (mother-in-law's father) passed away last weekend.

Thanks.

I am so sorry about that, were you close?

No, I wasn't close. My father-in-law passed away a year or two before I knew my wife. It's too bad because he went to Cal-Tech for Physics and Harvard for Biology. He also enjoyed biking.

As for my wife's grandpa, I wasn't that close either although I did meet him a few times. Unfortunately he was already pretty weak by then. So it wasn't that hard on me. It's a bit hard on my wife though.

[_BishopRic]

I think you could change the circumstances and come up with what parents in bitter disputes do all the time. I have seen non-LDs couples do it with all kinds of situations. Individuals who have been hurt and betrayed often fall over the edge like that.

But I think the spouse who is leaving the faith bears a lot of responsiblity in how that happens.

I have a daughter, married in the temple, whose husband has left the Church. They have a strong and happy marriage. The husband remained respectful and supportive of her continued faith. They have family home evening, home teachers, he goes to Church to hear the kids speak or perform, does not complain about her attending the temple or doing her callings. He does not try to convince the children to leave the Church.

I also know a family that has broken up, the couple divorced, the dad with Wednesday night and every other weekend with a child. The husband decided the Church wasn't true, constantly harangued his wife over how stupid she was to stay with it, would complain at any effort she made in a church calling, would not allow home teachers, would not allow her to have family home evening.

It isn't about whether a person is a member of the Church or not. It is about respecting and loving your spouse and wanting them to be happy.

I have to take the opportunity to post that I agree with Charity here (shocking!). I've had a little experience to work with interfaith couples, and the last line Charity wrote is absolutely the key -- both ways.

When one in a relationship has the attitude that they will "hang in there" while the other works through their "problems," and that they are waiting for the other to change their beliefs, there is no true intimacy possible. The flame dies.

For intimacy to flourish, there must be absolute unconditional love, and they must be able to look the other in the eye and say "I love you as you are," and really mean it! That is possible with interfaith couples, but a challenge given the teaching that one must be married to a faithful, card-carrying member to get to the best heaven....

When a person can focus on the attitude of "my karma ran over my dogma," it can be done, but only then.