How does the LDS church get away with it?

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_Inconceivable
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Re: Riddle me this..

Post by _Inconceivable »

Inconceivable wrote:My bride is now divorced from me eternally (because of my resignation) - but we are still married civilly.


Jason Bourne: Actually if she has not cancelled the sealing it is technically still in force.


Technically, I DO NOT EXIST ANYMORE - there is no eternal marriage.

My bride would not have to seek a temple cancellation if she were to divorce me because it is void.

I no longer hold the keys to resurrect my family and bring them into the Celestial kingdom.

I am no longer a member - I have been UN-baptised. I am out with the dirty bathwater.

Resignation is equivelant to being ex-communicated (without the family embarrassment, of course)

What gives you the idea that I am technically sealed?
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

The Nehor wrote:
Inconceivable wrote:TD,

Tell us what you really think about this topic.



: )


I think she's trying to fish out of me an invitation to join my personal harem but is just shy. ;)


Have you forgotten that you are part of my male harem? ;)

It seems to have slipped your mind that in Shady Acres, the tables are turned, and no harems are allowed for mere men. You just need to concern your pretty little heads with pleasing us. Now, to quote Infymus, "go fix me a sammich."

Obviously, my humor here is rather tongue in cheek, but there is a serious point. Guys? How would it REALLY make you feel if the woman you loved came to you and said, "I've prayed about it, and we are bringing Rick, (who happens to have amazing abs), into our family as a second husband. I'm sure we'll all get along well..."

How would you feel about your wife's "private time" with Rick? How would you feel about seeing your wife pregnant, knowing she was carrying Rick's child, and knowing that based on "God's will", you had to simply accept this, and treat the child as part of the family, as your own? How would you feel knowing that your wife is confiding in Rick about her innermost thoughts? About finances? Possibly about beefs she has with you?

Don't cop out on these questions by saying, "well, it's not going to happen because God's will is a patriarchal order". Open yourselves up to this. REALLY think about how you would feel, and answer honestly.
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

liz3564 wrote:
Have you forgotten that you are part of my male harem? ;)

It seems to have slipped your mind that in Shady Acres, the tables are turned, and no harems are allowed for mere men. You just need to concern your pretty little heads with pleasing us. Now, to quote Infymus, "go fix me a sammich."

Obviously, my humor here is rather tongue in cheek, but there is a serious point. Guys? How would it REALLY make you feel if the woman you loved came to you and said, "I've prayed about it, and we are bringing Rick, (who happens to have amazing abs), into our family as a second husband. I'm sure we'll all get along well..."

How would you feel about your wife's "private time" with Rick? How would you feel about seeing your wife pregnant, knowing she was carrying Rick's child, and knowing that based on "God's will", you had to simply accept this, and treat the child as part of the family, as your own? How would you feel knowing that your wife is confiding in Rick about her innermost thoughts? About finances? Possibly about beefs she has with you?

Don't cop out on these questions by saying, "well, it's not going to happen because God's will is a patriarchal order". Open yourselves up to this. REALLY think about how you would feel, and answer honestly.


I have a six-pack already. What does Rick bring to the equation in that case with his abs? ;)

Seriously though, how would I feel? It would be weird first. I think I could deal with it though. My perspective may be different in that I can envision the relationship some as I was invited into something like it once though I turned it down. It would depend on a few things and there could be little issues. I'd like to like the guy. In terms of 'private time' it's sex. It's nothing earth-shattering. I don't imagine it would be that different then marrying a licked cupcake. Assuming we all lived together I don't think I'd have a huge issue with raising Rick's child though to be honest I'd like one of my own at some point. Well, I don't think I'd mind her tellling him her innermost thoughts as long as she also felt comfortable sharing them with me. Finances...well, if we're a family we'd all have to discuss them. As long as they're not plotting to hide all the money from me that's expected. Beefs she has against me being confided to Rick would be an issue. I would hope that she would see that using Rick as a confidant to bash me (or using me to bash him) will cause problems. Even if she is just venting it will stir up tension between us. One of those things you'd have to talk about and make sure it doesn't get out of hand.

On the positive side, you only have to take your wife out on dates you don't like (I'm looking at you opera) half the time, can probably take every other weekend off and leave Rick to watch the kids. You also have more income, someone to play one-on-one with in the evening, half the time you need to do yardwork, have someone to spot you when weightlifting, and if she snores and/or kicks in bed you can sleep better on off days. So it's not all negative.

So, in answer, yes, if God commanded such a thing I think I could handle it. It would be hard but what marriage isn't hard? It would probably be harder but so is a man being married to two women.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

I appreciate your honesty in your answers, Nehor. I think that your feelings are, indeed, unique. Not to diminish your feelings, but I'm wondering if your answers to these questions will change in ten years, after you have been married to a woman you love more than life itself, who has borne your children, etc. It will seriously interest me to know. ;)

I do think that the feelings you have expressed here are genuine. I strongly believe that there are people who have an extraordinary ability to love, and who may actually be able to handle this type of relationship. However, just because someone is able to handle this type of relationship, does that necessarily mean that it should be desirable or optimal? What type of loving God would insist on this type of relationship as an ultimate goal?

I have stated before that I think there is a possibility that plural marriage would exist in the hereafter to accommodate those families who, in good faith, practiced it, and want to remain together. However, I simply cannot see how a loving God would truly want this type of relationship to exist as an optimal goal for his children.

Are there any married TBM's out there (BC, Gaz, Bob, Abman...) who would care to answer my questions about how you would truly feel if the tables were turned, and another man entered your relationship?
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

liz3564 wrote:I appreciate your honesty in your answers, Nehor. I think that your feelings are, indeed, unique. Not to diminish your feelings, but I'm wondering if your answers to these questions will change in ten years, after you have been married to a woman you love more than life itself, who has borne your children, etc. It will seriously interest me to know. ;)

I do think that the feelings you have expressed here are genuine. I strongly believe that there are people who have an extraordinary ability to love, and who may actually be able to handle this type of relationship. However, just because someone is able to handle this type of relationship, does that necessarily mean that it should be desirable or optimal? What type of loving God would insist on this type of relationship as an ultimate goal?

I have stated before that I think there is a possibility that plural marriage would exist in the hereafter to accommodate those families who, in good faith, practiced it, and want to remain together. However, I simply cannot see how a loving God would truly want this type of relationship to exist as an optimal goal for his children.

Are there any married TBM's out there (BC, Gaz, Bob, Abman...) who would care to answer my questions about how you would truly feel if the tables were turned, and another man entered your relationship?


I have no idea if they'll change. I kinda hope not. I am blessed with a fairly low capacity for jealousy (not non-existent though). Is it desirable or optimal? Like I mentioned before, I have friends who seem to think it is. They wouldn't have it any other way. I don't think polygamy is an ultimate goal but I do think it would be as easy in Celestial glory as monogamy. How can you feel jealous when you know of your partner's love for you as well as you know your own. And on top of that, you know their love for another and how real it is. I admit it would be difficult here since we are mired in insecurity, jealousy, mood swings, and vague thinking.

I see plural marriage as a moral neutral. It can be horribly abused (cough) FLDS (cough) but it could also be a fulfilling and wonderful way of life. Just like monogamous marriage can be ecstasy or hell on earth or anything in between.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

liz3564 wrote:Are there any married TBM's out there (BC, Gaz, Bob, Abman...) who would care to answer my questions about how you would truly feel if the tables were turned, and another man entered your relationship?

I'm the jealous type although I have become less jealous over the years.

I like what Nehor said:
How can you feel jealous when you know of your partner's love for you as well as you know your own. And on top of that, you know their love for another and how real it is. I admit it would be difficult here since we are mired in insecurity, jealousy, mood swings, and vague thinking.

That's more or less what I think. I think logically there is no reason we must be jealous or that jealousy is an a-priori virtue that should be preserved in the afterlife. However, from experience I know that I am jealous and that it is hard for me to rid myself of insecurity and jealousy.

Also, I would not be happy with polyandry or polygyny if my wife is not. It's just that I do not see an a-priori reason that jealousy would be desireable, or even fine to hold on to--and I say that with the idea of the tables being turned. Sometimes I think it would be awesome to be able to just be friends with wonderful women I've met without the problems of jealousy or infidelity getting in the way just as I am able to do so with some wonderful men. I think it's awesome to see ourselves as brothers and sisters already, and to be able to socialize together just as families do, and hopefully without the dangers of infidelity or jealousy.

But I am weak, and it's probably a good thing since the weakness of jealousy currently seems to keep my wife happy.
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_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

TD: Yes, I think polygyny is abusive.

BC: How so?

Liz: Oh, Lord, you REALLY asked TD that question?

Inc: TD, tell us what you really think?

I wrote a post to this last night but it disappeared into cyberspace. ARRGGHHH! Then we had a tornado warning and well, I didn't get back to it. :-)

Ok... here ya go! :-)

in my opinion, the very dynamic of polygyny is abuse for the same reason slavery in and of itself is abusive. In other words, regardless of how kind a slaveholder is, slaves are still slaves and the very nature of slavery is abusive.

Similarly, regardless of how nice a man is, the very fact that in polygyny women are NOT allowed the same rights, privileges, opportunities, and consideration as a man, is in and of itself abuse.

Whether one doesn't consider equality appropriate because of skin color, body parts, or lineage, doesn't much matter to me. The very fact that one group considers themselves worthy of increased power, opportunity, rights, not afforded to others due to skin color or a chromosome is abusive in an of itself.

Living here in VA, I often ponder the time of the Civil War and wonder how and why some people sensed or intuited the fact that slavery was wrong, while others held to it as something completely natural, totally normal, even Godly. What made some people evolve, or move into a consciousness that created a knowing that slavery was inherently UNgodly, while others fought to their death for their belief and could not embrace the same truth? this question fascinates me.

I don't have all the answers of course but I find a similar situation with some men (and even some women) and their views of, beliefs, and attitudes toward women. For some reason they can't understand the idea that for men to give themselves the rights and power to have multiple spouses while disallowing women the same right is wrong.

I hear excuses like, men want more sex, or it is God's way, or this is how nature works, or any number of completely ridiculous excuses very similar (in many cases) to the excuses men used to justify slavery.

in my opinion, the excuses are just a way for some men to justify what they want. Slaveholders wanted slaves and found ways (however nonsensical they were) to justify their desires. Similarly, men who can't see the problems with polygyny seem to come up with all sorts of ways to justify their desires, or to justify the behavior of some leaders.

My observation however, is that as humans evolve, become more self aware, deepen compassion, and become more enlightened (just the way the universe works), they have the ability to let go of some of the ridiculous archaic needs for ego, power, domination, privilege, and can move into a place where they no longer need to have control over those who are different (people of color, women, etc).

But it is not so for everyone, some folks seem to hold onto their less than holy needs, justifying and rationalizing them long past the time most of human consciousness has moved on.

It truly amazes me that some men simply cannot understand that giving themselves multiple women while holding the power to disallow women the possibility to have multiple men in their lives is absolutely inherently wrong.

In other words, men have the power and get to decide what the rules are; they give themselves multiple partners making sure they are good to go, and tell women they must be satisfied with only one man virtually ensuring they are left with little to nothing. The guys with the power keep women from having any. YES, this is abusive.

Now, as I always state, if a group of adults want to engage in whatever form of partnering they wish, I don't care so long as children are not hurt, they chose without coercion, manipulation, or force. (Of course, women who are under the impression that they MUST abide the rules of these men who have the power (under the guise of God), are indeed under manipulation and coercion). Nevertheless, I don't think this form of partnering is necessarily abusive. What is abusive is the practice of men disallowing women the rights and privileges they give to themselves; the men in power making the rules that create a system of complete inequality where women are subjugated, diminished, degraded, and considered less than human. And, yes, just like slavery where slaves were not considered fully human, so too does polygyny keep women from being considered fully human. (Just listen to proponents of polygamy... any care and concern for women is completely absent).

Think of all the FLDS women and men (and other cult followers) who have testimonies that they are following God's will by giving their little girls to older men to rape. The adults claim there is no force. (Sort of like a child predator who claims he didn't force a child into his car to abuse him but told the child if he didn't get into the car he would kill his family and burn his house down. Yeah, no force. The child freely chose to be abused. ARRGHHH!!!)

In addtion to the fundamental practice of polygyny being abusive lets think about what it means in real life.

You have men creating a system where their "needs" are met but a woman must sacrifice her very soul. (Now, I think men like this don't have a need for intimacy, emotional connection, deep compassion, true fatherhood, etc. etc., I'm talking about other "needs" like power, sex, ego gratification, glorification). Men exert their power, authority, privilege while women are left with nothing.

In other words, the powerful men make sure their "needs" are all taken care of by various women but a woman is required to be satisfied with whatever crumbs come her way. How in the world is this not abusive? Seriously. Why can't some men see this? (And we won't even get into the fact that in this system the non-powerful men get nothing... zip... nada, just ask the lost boys, men who have lost their families, and all the not-so-obedient-to-the-prophet men who are/were left alone in this system).

So, yes, the very foundational dynamics of polygyny are abusive. No question about this.

~dancer~

For those interested in this topic, you may enjoy reading one of my favorite dissertations, The Subjection of Women, by John Stuart Mill. :-)
http://www.constitution.org/jsm/women.htm
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

truth dancer wrote:Hi MB...

The problem with truthdancer's OP, and continued insistence that the Church is being disingenous with its statements about polygamy is that she is using terms rather more loosely than the Church uses them.


Well, I think the church uses various terms to present an untruth.

The church absolutely does believe in, and practice (to some extent) polygyny. To suggest it doesn't is disingenuous in my opinion.

~dancer~


I think better said is the LDS Church does not practice polygamy for people currently living but it does allow for men to be sealed/married to more than one women in the after life. Thus it does believe that there will he heavenly polygamy.
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

I think better said is the LDS Church does not practice polygamy for people currently living but it does allow for men to be sealed/married to more than one women in the after life. Thus it does believe that there will he heavenly polygamy.


This is an improvement but still not quite accurate. ;-)

The LDS church does allow men to be eternally sealed to multiple women who are alive so long as they are not legally married to more than one.* It does believe men will have multiple wives in heaven (CKHL).

And of course we all know a sealing is an eternal marriage.

~dancer~

*Same rule in the FLDS church.
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

To be quite honest, I don't care at all that the church allows a man to be sealed to more than one woman for the next life. Big frickin' deal. The church has no more idea what the afterlife will be like than does anyone else on earth. They guess; they hope; they assume, but no one knows, and that includes the LDS prophets. So anything having to do with the next life is all conjecture and my conjecture is as good as anyone else's.

This life, though, that's a different thing. The inherently abusive nature of polygamy is amply demonstrated by the status of women in any society where polygamy is part of the culture. Women have no status at all. Women in any polygamous culture are considered less than men in the same culture, whether it's Muslim, FLDS, or the Kingston's clan. Men simply cannot be trusted with multiple women; it corrupts them beyond redemption. So that is two major problems with polygamy as it is practiced now: it's abusive and reduces women to things, and it corrupts men.
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