The Hatchet is Passed On to FAIR

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_harmony
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Re: The Hatchet is Passed On to FAIR

Post by _harmony »

Gadianton wrote:But my complete "review" of volume 1 might shed some light. This has been delayed as my research has taken a surprising turn, and led me to results I had not expected at all.

Let's just say that what might have ultimately undermined any good at work in the early days of FARMS was a very specific event that hastily triggered the small group to go into full damage control mode. Had not this urgency been made manifest, the side effect from the more broad control agenda of the leadership of the group, the side effect of having a number of differing perspectives opine on a wide range of LDS books, might have been enough to establish a market for the FROB as a very positive and successful venue that couldn't be fully controlled by its handlers.


What event was that? The firing of the Sept Six? Something earlier? Later?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Ray A

Re: The Hatchet is Passed On to FAIR

Post by _Ray A »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:Can you show me a quote by a GA that says a HGM was given Joseph Smith by revelation?


Joseph Fielding Smith wrote this:

SPECULATION ABOUT Book of Mormon GEOGRAPHY. Within recent years there has arisen among certain students of the Book of Mormon a theory to the effect that within the period covered by the Book of Mormon, the Nephites and Lamanites were confined almost entirely within the borders of the territory comprising Central America and the southern portion of Mexico—the isthmus of Tehauntepec probably being the "narrow neck" of land spoken of in the Book of Mormon rather than the isthmus of Panama.

This theory is founded upon the assumption that it was impossible for the colony of Lehi's to multiply and fill the hemisphere within the limits of 1,000 years, or from the coming of Lehi from Jerusalem to the time of the destruction of the Nephites at the Hill Cumorah. Moreover, they claim that the story in the Book of Mormon of the migrations, building of cities, and the wars and contentions, preclude the possibility of the people spreading over great distances such as we find within the borders of North and South America....

LOCALE OF CUMORAH, RAMAH, AND RIPLIANCUM. This modernistic theory of necessity, in order to be consistent, must place the waters of Ripliancum and the Hill Cumorah some place within the restricted territory of Central America, notwithstanding the teachings of the Church to the contrary for upwards of 100 years. Because of this theory some members of the Church have become confused and greatly disturbed in their faith in the Book of Mormon. It is for this reason that evidence is here presented to show that it is not only possible that these places could be located as the Church has held during the past century, but that in very deed such is the case. It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all." Mormon adds: "And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites."

EARLY BRETHREN LOCATE CUMORAH IN WESTERN NEW YORK. It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery. Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history....


If you want to be technical, you can say he didn't say "it was revealed", but every comment made by JFS above indicates he believed it was revelation, and it was reiterated, time and again, in the teachings of the Church leaders. I understand the point, even the Church leaders can be wrong, but using that standard all conferences should be cancelled because "they could be wrong", and everyone assigned to reading only scripture in the first week of April and October. Why pay such attention to teachings that in ten years could be baloney.
_Ray A

Re: The Hatchet is Passed On to FAIR

Post by _Ray A »

Adding on to the above, I realise that there were early ideas even among some Church leaders that the Book of Mormon should be approached cautiously in regard to geography. Those however never came to the fore in general conferences, church media, and teaching manuals, as far as I'm aware. In 1975, weeks after joining the Church, my Institute teacher gave a lesson on Book of Mormon geography, using Central America as the "narrow neck of land". Then there was the Jack West slides, using the same idea. Lots and lots of "evidences" were presented, some very impressive. White Lamanites and all that stuff.

So all I'm saying is, it's going to be a difficult task to convince many members that Meldrum is wrong. Even if his ideas are wrong, and I believe they are, he has the weight of history behind him.
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: The Hatchet is Passed On to FAIR

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Ray A.: He certainly does. FAIR did a nice job of showing that a HGT was not the exclusive view even among apostles since the mid to late 1800s until now, however. JFe Smith also believed in a 6,000 year. old earth. I disagree with him there, too.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Gadianton
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Re: The Hatchet is Passed On to FAIR

Post by _Gadianton »

harmony wrote:What event was that? The firing of the Sept Six? Something earlier? Later?


I'm not telling. Yet. :)
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Ray A

Re: The Hatchet is Passed On to FAIR

Post by _Ray A »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:JFe Smith also believed in a 6,000 year. old earth. I disagree with him there, too.


Are you certain about that? I know he often quoted Immanuel Velikovsky as a possible explanation for a young earth. But I don't recall him writing that he believed the earth was 6,000 years old. I could be wrong.
_Sethbag
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Re: The Hatchet is Passed On to FAIR

Post by _Sethbag »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:JFe Smith also believed in a 6,000 year. old earth. I disagree with him there, too.

Way to go there, Loap. In order to justify believing things contrary to the teachings of God's Erstwhile Spokesman, Revelator, and Right Hand Man on Earth Joseph Fielding Smith, you further discredit him by pointing out the apparently impotent nature of his personal, direct relationship with God.

These guys see Jesus, see Elohim, talk with them, get their marching orders from them in actual conversations? And yet none of these "worldly" things ever comes up? And Elohim is perfectly fine letting those who claim to speak with and for him go around spreading "teachings" which are absurd and utterly contradicted by mountains of evidence gathered by the arm of flesh? Loap, all these things are red flags which should be telling you something about your epistemology. Are you listening?
Last edited by Anonymous on Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Gadianton
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Re: The Hatchet is Passed On to FAIR

Post by _Gadianton »

Seth,

When you've been around Internet Mormons as long as I have, you'll learn that pitting them against their prophet phases them not at all. My overall experience has been that on the balance, the prophets really know nothing special, often less than the Internet Mormon does, and that his stewardship is so narrow and technical that the Internet Mormon can believe whatever he wants and it will never conflict with that microscopic kernal of absolute truth.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: The Hatchet is Passed On to FAIR

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Sethbag, you're being cartoonish.

There are interesting and important issues here, but caricature isn't very useful.

Gadianton wrote:When you've been around Internet Mormons as long as I have, you'll learn that pitting them against their prophet phases them not at all. My overall experience has been that on the balance, the prophets really know nothing special, often less than the Internet Mormon does, and that his stewardship is so narrow and technical that the Internet Mormon can believe whatever he wants and it will never conflict with that microscopic kernal of absolute truth.

Ditto.

Of course, I don't know much more about internet Mormons than I do about unicorns. I myself am a three-time Shades-certified "chapel Mormon."
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: The Hatchet is Passed On to FAIR

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Sethbag, I'm not feeling enough condescension in your recent posts. Can you turn it up a notch or two? ;)

Here's my take: I don't believe everything a prophet says is true.

I know that sort of ambiguity is difficult for some people, and has become a nice point for former believers to trumpet, but I feel fine with it. It's not a matter of being "in denial," it's just a simple fact. Clearly, believing that everything any President of the Church ever said must be 100% accurate and aligned with science and etc. or else they are false prophets, would lead one to conclude they were all false prophets. I don't believe in prophets that way.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
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