Gazelam wrote:I can't find my reference to this, but I recall a story about Joseph being brought in to court for healing a man. Apparently someone thought he did it by the power of the devil or something. The issue was examined, and witnesses bore testimony and he was found guilty of the charges against him. But since there was no crime in spiritual healing, he was released.
I don't think anyone is saying there weren't trumped up charged, but certainly a lot of them were legitimate!
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If many were legitimate we could expect many convictions, no?
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam
mms wrote:I didn't see anything about exceptions in Elder Hales' language. Don't you think that Joseph Smith's angry, retaliatory response to those who he thought were persecuting him (i.e., printing things he did not want them to print) played a fairly significant role in his ultimate death? Might this have been used as an example? Maybe E. Hales could have said,
"When Joseph Smith did retaliate by ordering the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor, he riled up criminals who ultimately killed him. Thus, we see, retaliation was not the best course and it is not the best course now."
???? Indeed, with this glaring and important retaliatory event playing such a significant role, I cannot help but think it somewhat disengenuous of E. Hales to state things as he did ("He did not retaliate."). You disagree? Of course you do :)
Do you think Elder Hales was saying "Joseph Smith never retaliated about anything, ever, his entire life."?
If he was, I disagree with Elder Hales.
E. Hales starts with "throughout his life" and then says "he did not retaliate." What do you think the implication of this statement is, LOAP?
LOAP, I actually find you to be among the more reasonable of the defenders, but the fact that you cannot even concede the rather obvious point that Hales should not have said this the way he did considering one of the very events leading to Joseph Smith's death was Joseph Smith's angry retaliation against a printing press is disappointing. You simply avoided that point and responded to "the question I should have asked."
mms wrote:E. Hales starts with "throughout his life" and then says "he did not retaliate." What do you think the implication of this statement is, LOAP?
LOAP, I actually find you to be among the more reasonable of the defenders, but the fact that you cannot even concede the rather obvious point that Hales should not have said this the way he did considering one of the very events leading to Joseph Smith's death was Joseph Smith's angry retaliation against a printing press is disappointing. You simply avoided that point and responded to "the question I should have asked."
I already explained my view. Given what I understand from history I don't take Elder Hale's comment to mean Joseph Smith never retaliated against anyone. If Elder Hales means that Joseph Smith never retaliated, then I disagree with Elder Hales. It is that simple.
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam
Put this in perspective. How many decent people can you think of that have been arrested 200 times?
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.
LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
mms wrote: E. Hales starts with "throughout his life" and then says "he did not retaliate." What do you think the implication of this statement is, LOAP?
LOAP, I actually find you to be among the more reasonable of the defenders, but the fact that you cannot even concede the rather obvious point that Hales should not have said this the way he did considering one of the very events leading to Joseph Smith's death was Joseph Smith's angry retaliation against a printing press is disappointing. You simply avoided that point and responded to "the question I should have asked."
Do you consider that firing a gun at the members of the mob who stormed the jail that day could legitimately be thought of as retaliation?
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mms wrote:Right. The question I should have asked. Got it. Let me try this: Do you think E. Hales statement was misleading given the history you, he and I know?
Since I don't know what Elder Hales knows about Church history generally, I can't speak for him. I think the quote very well can be misleading, depending on who was listening. I certainly wasn't misled by it.
I think if I had the opportunity to ask Elder Hales if he believed that Joseph Smith ever retaliated against someone he would most likely agree that Joseph Smith had, in fact, done so. I also believe the point of Elder Hales' comment, however, wasn't to explain Joseph Smith's perfection, it was to discourage retaliation.
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam